A lutin's study journal

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

A lutin's study journal

Post by Amelia »

I open a second study journal, not for me but for my kid. He's always been interested in the game since watching me play. Lately, I've tried to use that interest to teach him a little. I'm sharing my experiments here, in the hope that others on this forum will come and share their insights about teaching go to young kids.

My son is three and a half. He enjoys sharing that activity with me and often asks for the board and stones. He's full of interest for the game. He can also be quite focused when playing any game, but he prefers making up his own rules. He has objections to following other people's rules ;-) Go is one of the activities that make him work on that.

Our material:
- Indestructible cheap plastic stones and indestructible cheap board
- Computer and android tablet for various go software

What he already learned:
- How to store white and black stones in separate bowls (and not eat them, mix them, throw them, other parents will complete for me this non-exhaustive list...)
- How to put down the stones on the board, on the intersections, not in the squares
- Players take either white or black and play alternatively

What he's currently learning:
- How to capture a single stone
- Not move stones around after they were put on the board
- Not remove stones after they were put on the board, unless captured

Point one is the main focus. The rest will make more sense for him when we start playing capture go together, so I'm not particularly strict on enforcing it for now.
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by Amelia »

So I'm trying to teach my son how to capture a single stone on the board. It's harder than one might think. I showed an example and he imitated me. But he didn't understand the underlying concept (where a stone's liberties are). He is able to reproduce the capture of one center stone, but can't apply that knowledge to first line stones. After a few days he forgets and tries again to fill the intersection that are no liberties:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . . . . .
$$ | . X O X . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I introduced him to GoChild, but the stars didn't align. First he got angry at the program for not giving him more black stones, then he noticed the pretty house-shaped problem further down and went on to make a house on the board.
I tried to introduce him to igowin as well, although it's too early for that. He was amused for a while, but I think it confuses him and doesn't help.

At the moment I think repetition is my best option. As long as he still enjoys taking out the board, what could go wrong?

I also ordered that (on the recommendation of oren given on another thread, long ago):
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B005419 ... ge_o00_s00

It will take a while to arrive, since it's being shipped from Japan. I hope the smaller board will help.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Amelia wrote:My son is three and a half.
As long as he still enjoys taking out the board...
Let him enjoy it and pick up all the subtleties by himself.
I know of at least two pros who learned Go not by being taught,
but just by quietly watching adults play.
They were both older than 3.5 at the time.

One is Michael Redmond, 9p, from here, Santa Barbara.
When his dad Peter played Go with other adult friends,
Michael would just quietly watch their games.
He was probably 5 or 6 at the time.
( If someone has more accurate info, please contribute. )

Another pro also just picked up the game as a child,
about 7 to 8, just by quietly watching adults play.
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by Amelia »

That's interesting advice. I may be trying too hard instead of just letting things happen.
My lutin has a little bit of trouble with the *quiet* word, though :lol: If there's a book in my hands, he'll grab it. But he's young, so maybe that's just normal for his age :)

Anyway, I'm planning to go to a local tournament in two weeks. My husband and kid will tag along for part of the afternoon, so he'll have an occasion to watch me play with other people, not just with the computer.
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by Boidhre »

Take turns (hard at that age!) with them placing stones on the board. Make "go shapes" yourself and let them do whatever they like. I remember someone on here recommending this a few years back and it sounded excellent for a young child, even at 5 it's a better approach with my daughter than capture go or similar. :)

It doesn't matter if they learn the game or not so long as they're having fun!
User avatar
Joaz Banbeck
Judan
Posts: 5546
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Location: Banbeck Vale
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 1434 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Amelia wrote:... If there's a book in my hands, he'll grab it...


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by Amelia »

Boidhre wrote:Take turns (hard at that age!) with them placing stones on the board. Make "go shapes" yourself and let them do whatever they like. I remember someone on here recommending this a few years back and it sounded excellent for a young child, even at 5 it's a better approach with my daughter than capture go or similar. :)

I'll try that!

It doesn't matter if they learn the game or not so long as they're having fun!

I think the fun factor can only increase if they do learn something. But it needs to fit their intellectual maturity and interest for the game, so I'm tiptoeing to see what kind of doors I can open for him.

With reading, we know that for kids who have books early and have stories told to them, it will be much easier and more fun to learn how to read once they're at that stage. Seems to fit what you and Ed are proposing. Telling go stories with the stones :-)
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by Boidhre »

Amelia wrote:With reading, we know that for kids who have books early and have stories told to them, it will be much easier and more fun to learn how to read once they're at that stage.


Foster the interest, the rest will take care of itself*. :)

*May not hold in reality, but sounds nice!
User avatar
oca
Lives in gote
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:53 am
Rank: DDK
GD Posts: 0
KGS: aco
IGS: oca
OGS: oca
Location: Switzerland
Has thanked: 485 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by oca »

At 6 years old, My daugther liked to draw flowers with the stones... well... that was not that far from a ponnuki...

She also liked playing "atari go" (start with a crosscut at the center of the board, and the first one who capture a stone win the game)
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by Amelia »

It just arrived :D Even my husband agrees to play me on that one. If I'd known that, I would have bought it much earlier!
Attachments
Kinderbrett.png
Kinderbrett.png (966.89 KiB) Viewed 14701 times
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

よんろのご。 :) Are those plastic or wooden pieces ?
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by Amelia »

It's wood. It's a very nice set :)
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Nice! :)
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by Amelia »

We've played around a bit with the apple-tree board, but the lutin doesn't seem to identify it as the same game than the one with white and black stones :lol:

Yesterday, watching me review a game on the computer, he wanted to try doing the same. At his request, I set up an empty 9x9 board in CGoban for him to set stones on. I was surprised at how interesting it was for him!
He tried putting down stones and then capturing them (he told me he wanted to eat this one or that one). And it was great, because there was no need to argue about rules. Captured stones disappear instantly, giving him immediate feedback. Illegal moves are simply impossible.

He captured a three stone group by accident and was delighted :) We'd only tried capturing single stones. He tried to reproduce the experiment but as greedy as he is, he choose a very big target group and couldn't quite manage it. But I think he's understood a lot more with just ten minutes of fooling around with Cgoban than with GoChild or any other idea I came up with.

So, for now I'll just let him do his own experiments. Let's see what he finds out.

I add the sgf of yesterday, only for my own proud-mom benefit :mrgreen:

Attachments
CaptureWithCGoban.sgf
(388 Bytes) Downloaded 868 times
User avatar
oca
Lives in gote
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:53 am
Rank: DDK
GD Posts: 0
KGS: aco
IGS: oca
OGS: oca
Location: Switzerland
Has thanked: 485 times
Been thanked: 166 times

Re: A lutin's study journal

Post by oca »

Hi Amelia,

26 to 29 is really funny :D !
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
Post Reply