Most common variations in Big Avalanche joseki

[yunxuanli97]

I have seen a lot of questions regarding variations in the big avalanche joseki. I have made a video about big avalanche's most common variation before and hope this is helpful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9uoZtlZYhM

[DrStraw]

Is that the same as the onadare? I never can get the English names straight.

[Abyssinica]

Is that the same as the onadare? I never can get the English names straight.

Yes

[EdLee]

Is that the same as the onadare?
I never can get the English names straight.

Code: Select all

avalanche                  nadare          雪崩 (kanji)
avalanche                  nadare          ナダレ (katakana)
the avalanche joseki(s)    nadare jouseki  ナダレ定石  
Large/big avalanche        ō-nadare        大ナダレ  
Small avalanche            ko-nadare       小ナダレ 

$$ Small Avalanche
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X X . . . . .
$$ | . X X O O X . . . ,
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Small Avalanche
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X X . . . . .
$$ | . X X O O X . . . ,
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

$$ Large Avalanche
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X X X . . . .
$$ | . X X O O O X . . ,
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Large Avalanche
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X X X . . . .
$$ | . X X O O O X . . ,
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

DrStraw, your avalanche knowledge must be substantial --
I'm a little perplexed where you find the confusion in the English names.
Both avalanche josekis are messy.
But the Small Avalanche starts smaller -- physically and visually smaller --
and the variations are less messy.
The Large/big Avalanche starts bigger -- physically and visually bigger --
and of course as you are well aware, the variations are crazy.

You were introduced to the Japanese names first ?
You learned that the ō(大) means Big, and the ko(小) means Small.

For you, where is the confusion in the English names ? I'm very curious.

Intro to the Small Avalanche:

[DrStraw]

DrStraw, your avalanche knowledge must be substantial --
I'm a little perplexed where you find the confusion in the English names.

For you, where is the confusion in the English names ? I'm very curious.

I simply learned the Japanese names for all the joseki long before the English names, so they come naturally to me. The English names are like a foreign language. The only books available when I started to play used the Japanese names. I still think in terms of shimari and kakari instead of enclosure and approach.

[Abyssinica]

DrStraw, your avalanche knowledge must be substantial --
I'm a little perplexed where you find the confusion in the English names.

For you, where is the confusion in the English names ? I'm very curious.

I simply learned the Japanese names for all the joseki long before the English names, so they come naturally to me. The English names are like a foreign language. The only books available when I started to play used the Japanese names. I still think in terms of shimari and kakari instead of enclosure and approach.

I once read a book and it started saying things like "When black plays the ikken takabasami..." and it's just too dense to read like that constantly even if I can understand it.

[DrStraw]

I once read a book and it started saying things like "When black plays the ikken takabasami..." and it's just too dense to read like that constantly even if I can understand it.

"Ikken Takabasami" is just as easy to me as "One point high pincer" and used to come just as naturally. Nowadays, with all the online material I am used to the English so will use it. But I cannot remember the last time I heard "big avalanche" so that does not come as easily as onadare.

[Cassandra]

I simply learned the Japanese names for all the joseki long before the English names, so they come naturally to me. The English names are like a foreign language. The only books available when I started to play used the Japanese names. I still think in terms of shimari and kakari instead of enclosure and approach.

This is very familiar to me.

But -- as a German -- I think in terms of "Shimari", and "Kakari".

However, during writing my books on Igo Hatsuyôron, I had to learn that "shimari", and "kakari", would suite native English eyes much better.

[oren]

However, during writing my books on Igo Hatsuyôron, I had to learn that "shimari", and "kakari", would suite native English eyes much better.

"Enclosure" and "Approach" feel more natural to me.

[Abyssinica]

However, during writing my books on Igo Hatsuyôron, I had to learn that "shimari", and "kakari", would suite native English eyes much better.

"Enclosure" and "Approach" feel more natural to me.

Words like shimari, kakari, nobi for me fall into the category where both sound equal, but things like hasami definitely do not.

[gowan]

It has been said before that go terms are technical words with specific meanings that might be different from the everyday meanings. I am picking nits here but I think "enclosing move" is better than "enclosure" since after a shimari move the corner is often still vulnerable to invasion. I learned go in Japan almost 60 years ago. The first serious English go books I encountered were the first editions of the Ishi Press books like Basic Techniques, Strategic Concepts, and Sakata's Middle Game of Go, in which Japanese terms were heavily used. I knew all the terminology so, of course this usage didn't bother me. I have friends who did not know Japanese and used these books and they, too, had no trouble with the terminology. They just treated them as special terms that they had to learn, just as one might have to learn a specialized terminology in any subject. The advantage is that the meaning was learned from the practical usage, not from inaccurate definitions in a different language.

[DrStraw]

It has been said before that go terms are technical words with specific meanings that might be different from the everyday meanings. I am picking nits here but I think "enclosing move" is better than "enclosure" since after a shimari move the corner is often still vulnerable to invasion. I learned go in Japan almost 60 years ago. The first serious English go books I encountered were the first editions of the Ishi Press books like Basic Techniques, Strategic Concepts, and Sakata's Middle Game of Go, in which Japanese terms were heavily used. I knew all the terminology so, of course this usage didn't bother me. I have friends who did not know Japanese and used these books and they, too, had no trouble with the terminology. They just treated them as special terms that they had to learn, just as one might have to learn a specialized terminology in any subject. The advantage is that the meaning was learned from the practical usage, not from inaccurate definitions in a different language.

Those are exactly the same books I learned from and are the reason I am comfortable with the terminology. That is all there was back then. I later studied Japanese and that reinforced it all.

[oren]

Most of my books are Japanese, so I am comfortable with all the terminology. When I teach, I try to use as much English as possible. It just feels easier to help people pick up the game and make it less strange.

[DrStraw]

Most of my books are Japanese, so I am comfortable with all the terminology. When I teach, I try to use as much English as possible. It just feels easier to help people pick up the game and make it less strange.

I agree with this, but that does not make it more natural. I cannot remember the last time I heard anyone call it the avalanche joseki and my initial query was genuine. Do you use "taisha" or "great slant"? I don't think I have ever heard the latter.

[oren]

I usually use avalanche. I do use taisha but it rarely comes up