In the diagram below, black has developed a strong double wing formation. Now, you may consider the fight in the north-west to be more urgent than anything, or maybe an approach to the south-west star point stone. Just forget about those for now. My question is about the proper implementation of black's plan for the east side of the board. I've read from multiple books that in positions like this one, black would playing slow and timid to spend more moves with something like a knight's move enclosure or a large knight's move at R13 or N17 (One of these moves would seem to fall under Bill Spights' definition of "incrementally building territory"). I'm just trying to wrap my head around the basic idea that I've seen continually reinforced that instead of marking off a territory and then directly defending it, it's better to focus on building strength in the particular area and then to attack when invaded, making profit from the fight that proceeds. I wonder if someone here can better illustrate this concept for me (and I realize that being a weaker player, I may have very well created an example in which it is a strong play for black to defend his moyo; I hope you can still get the idea of what I'm talking about).
Fast forward to the this point. From what I've seen in many different professional game commentaries, white would be considered over concentrated in the top left and bottom left. However, those are all solidified points and black doesn't really have anything to show for it yet. Where does black play in a position like this one to keep from falling greatly behind (given the black formation on the right side is full of invasion points.) I feel like a play at N17 would black the strength needed to attack the two white stones. Once again, forgive me if these aren't the greatest examples to work with.
A basic strategy question.
-
Joelnelsonb
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 6:45 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- OGS: Saint Ravitt
- Has thanked: 13 times
- Been thanked: 24 times
A basic strategy question.
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...
-
DrStraw
- Oza
- Posts: 2180
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:09 am
- Rank: AGA 5d
- GD Posts: 4312
- Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
- Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
- Has thanked: 237 times
- Been thanked: 662 times
- Contact:
Re: A basic strategy question.
I am wondering what sequence led to this position. Could it be the following. If so, I think there is more at issue than your question because some of the black moves are not ideal and he should not have reached a position like this. It this was not the sequence then tewari would show that it is still a bad position to be in.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
-
Joaz Banbeck
- Judan
- Posts: 5546
- Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
- Rank: 1D AGA
- GD Posts: 1512
- Kaya handle: Test
- Location: Banbeck Vale
- Has thanked: 1080 times
- Been thanked: 1434 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
IMHO, the only move for black is below:
Black is not particularly concerned about white expanding the lower left corner, for the is no single move that does this efficiently.
But black should be concerned about this play by white:
In this version, a huge chunk of the left and lower left are under white influence, and black will find himself on the wrong end of a fight if he tries to live almost anyplace in that region. ( And, of course, dropping the two black stones at F15/F17 would be bad for black )
Black is not particularly concerned about white expanding the lower left corner, for the is no single move that does this efficiently.
But black should be concerned about this play by white:
In this version, a huge chunk of the left and lower left are under white influence, and black will find himself on the wrong end of a fight if he tries to live almost anyplace in that region. ( And, of course, dropping the two black stones at F15/F17 would be bad for black )
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
-
schawipp
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:13 am
- Rank: EGF 4k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 75 times
- Been thanked: 58 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
Imagine a search tree, where one move has a small but secure result (i.e. you get 10 points in the corner for sure) and a second move has at least two alternative followups, which are not yet secure but potentially bigger (e.g. either you could surround a few weak stones on a large scale or you invade into an opponents framework, depending on how your opponent responds). Building strength usually is such multi-purpose approach, where even the nature of the purposes may become visible many moves later. This approach needs more flexibility and may involve some complicated fighting sequences; however it should be clear that more points can be (statistically) obtained by playing the flexible way.Joelnelsonb wrote:I'm just trying to wrap my head around the basic idea that I've seen continually reinforced that instead of marking off a territory and then directly defending it, it's better to focus on building strength in the particular area and then to attack when invaded, making profit from the fight that proceeds.
This especially holds during Fuseki or early mid-game, when most parts of the board are still unsettled. When the game has further progressed, the relevant parts of the board are more or less decided, and you count that you are clearly ahead, you can of course revert to the non-flexible style for the purpose of securing the lead.
-
ez4u
- Oza
- Posts: 2414
- Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:15 pm
- Rank: Jp 6 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: ez4u
- Location: Tokyo, Japan
- Has thanked: 2351 times
- Been thanked: 1332 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
"It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so."
- Artemus Ward
I doubt that we could find a pro game with this joseki where having played K17, Black plays elsewhere next.
- Artemus Ward
Black has a thin framework that is essentially wide open to invasion by White.In the diagram below, black has developed a strong double wing formation...
I doubt that any textbook has advised slow, timid plays. I have to feel that you are substituting you feelings for the advice of the authors. Thus making something out of them that was never intended.I've read from multiple books that in positions like this one, black would playing slow and timid to spend more moves with something like a knight's move enclosure or a large knight's move...
I doubt that we could find a pro game with this joseki where having played K17, Black plays elsewhere next.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
-
Joelnelsonb
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 6:45 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- OGS: Saint Ravitt
- Has thanked: 13 times
- Been thanked: 24 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
As I said in the original post, there's a particular concept that I'm driving at here. I realize that the example given may not be that great but try to read between the lines a little. Take the following example. Without thinking of the urgency of moves throughout the rest of the board, the marked black stone doesn't look like such a bad move. Why is it that it would be discouraged to defend against the marked invasion points rather than seal them off and settle fourth line points?
Thinking like a go player during a game of chess is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. Thinking like a chess player during a game of go feels like getting knifed while you're holding a gun...
-
oren
- Oza
- Posts: 2777
- Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:54 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: oren
- Tygem: oren740, orenl
- IGS: oren
- Wbaduk: oren
- Location: Seattle, WA
- Has thanked: 251 times
- Been thanked: 549 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
After q10, both sides are still open. It's hard to say what you actually got from it.
-
quantumf
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 844
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:36 pm
- Rank: 3d
- GD Posts: 422
- KGS: komi
- Has thanked: 180 times
- Been thanked: 151 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
At some point of the game, a move like Q8 may in fact be a good move. However, it is a one dimensional move that secures maybe 10 or 15 points, in gote. What you'd rather do is play it in sente. So, ideally, you want white to invade your moyo, then get to play Q8 while chasing white. Put another way, you want to force (induce) white to make you play Q8. This is far more efficient than just passively playing it early in the game for no other reason than a few points.Joelnelsonb wrote:As I said in the original post, there's a particular concept that I'm driving at here. I realize that the example given may not be that great but try to read between the lines a little. Take the following example. Without thinking of the urgency of moves throughout the rest of the board, the marked black stone doesn't look like such a bad move. Why is it that it would be discouraged to defend against the marked invasion points rather than seal them off and settle fourth line points?
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
Joelnelsonb wrote:As I said in the original post, there's a particular concept that I'm driving at here. I realize that the example given may not be that great but try to read between the lines a little. Take the following example. Without thinking of the urgency of moves throughout the rest of the board, the marked black stone doesn't look like such a bad move. Why is it that it would be discouraged to defend against the marked invasion points rather than seal them off and settle fourth line points?
is not per se a bad move. It certainly is not a bad move for a move on the right side. 
The problem comes when it is played too soon. It is still a play for the opening. If we think of the opening as lasting around 40 moves, to make a very rough estimate, if this move were played at around move 25 it would probably be fine. So it is definitely an opening play, just not an early opening play. Black ends up overconcentrated.Edit: Overconcentrated for that stage of the game.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
DrStraw
- Oza
- Posts: 2180
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:09 am
- Rank: AGA 5d
- GD Posts: 4312
- Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
- Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
- Has thanked: 237 times
- Been thanked: 662 times
- Contact:
Re: A basic strategy question.
It actually looks like a very bad move to me. The natural extension from each of the corners is to the hoshi at the top of bottom. Instead you have made an extension from both in the wrong direction but have not yet secured any territory on that side. This is a move to play after the extensions.Joelnelsonb wrote:As I said in the original post, there's a particular concept that I'm driving at here. I realize that the example given may not be that great but try to read between the lines a little. Take the following example. Without thinking of the urgency of moves throughout the rest of the board, the marked black stone doesn't look like such a bad move. Why is it that it would be discouraged to defend against the marked invasion points rather than seal them off and settle fourth line points?
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
-
Charles Matthews
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 450
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 9:12 am
- Rank: BGA 3 dan
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 5 times
- Been thanked: 189 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
Err, no thanks.Joelnelsonb wrote:In the diagram below, black has developed a strong double wing formation. Now, you may consider the fight in the north-west to be more urgent than anything, or maybe an approach to the south-west star point stone. Just forget about those for now.
Well, what makes you think any sort of framework plan can be "implemented" by ignoring the rest of the board?Joelnelsonb wrote:My question is about the proper implementation of black's plan for the east side of the board.
The main issue, if Black wants to build up the top right, is the white weak group made up of the circled stones. It ought to be axiomatic that the opponent's weak group on the edge of my framework is good for the framework, in that attacking plays that are also framework expansion are dual purpose. How much mileage there is in this idea depends on how weak the group is. So keep it weak.
If this happens, Black is already doing quite well. Black a or Black b is satisfactory. So perhaps
is not the best idea, but White c, for example, would allow Black to cut and fight.Black has got distracted and has gone off-piste. Sense of direction is important.Joelnelsonb wrote: Fast forward to the this point.
White's stones in the lower left were placed on the third line, Black in the upper right was on the fourth line, so Black playing in the south west wasn't the urgent area.
Last edited by Charles Matthews on Wed Nov 18, 2015 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
skydyr
- Oza
- Posts: 2495
- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:06 am
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: skydyr
- Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
- Location: DC
- Has thanked: 156 times
- Been thanked: 436 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
Maybe I'm too quick to sacrifice, but I think it'd be worth considering B in the position above.
In the second diagram, something like this feels natural, but the lower left has been an utter disaster for black, as mentioned. Black then tries to make something of his moyo while attacking white, but there could be complex fighting if white cuts.
In the second diagram, something like this feels natural, but the lower left has been an utter disaster for black, as mentioned. Black then tries to make something of his moyo while attacking white, but there could be complex fighting if white cuts.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
How for Black to develop on the right side?
There are any number of ways, as the marked points indicate.
The rest of the board should be taken under consideration. 
is often played in this sort of position. IMO, it is usually a bit easier to handle than the other plays. The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
Maybe, for about two seconds.skydyr wrote: Maybe I'm too quick to sacrifice, but I think it'd be worth considering B in the position above.
1) The watchword is divide and conquer.
2) Was the pincer,
, played with the intention of making a sacrifice?The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Shaddy
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1206
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:44 pm
- Rank: KGS 5d
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: Str1fe, Midorisuke
- Has thanked: 51 times
- Been thanked: 192 times
Re: A basic strategy question.
The other thing is that it's inconsistent to sacrifice F17 and F15, because F15 for D14 becomes a bad exchange.