PGETC 2018/9

[Javaness2]

Is there any news on this year's season of the PGETC, specifically
We seem to be missing a manager for leagues C and D?
Is the event going to be rated or not?
What will happen to the play-off stages, will the all be at the EGC?

[KKP]

When will PGETC 2018/9 start ?
PGETC started in 2017 at 26th of september, in 2016 at 20th of september, in 2015 15th of september, in 2014 9th of september.
Every time in september. It is time to start this year 18th or 25th of september. But, there is not informattion in https://pandanet-igs.com/communities/euroteamchamps

[Javaness2]

When will PGETC 2018/9 start ?
PGETC started in 2017 at 26th of september, in 2016 at 20th of september, in 2015 15th of september, in 2014 9th of september.
Every time in september. It is time to start this year 18th or 25th of september. But, there is not informattion in https://pandanet-igs.com/communities/euroteamchamps

It seems that it will start 'soon', we can guess that means in October. .

[Vesa]

Hello,

Sorry about the delay, but the announcement is now up https://pandanet-igs.com/communities/euroteamchamps/425:

The 9th Pandanet Go European Team Championship will start soon. We expect to have 37 teams, League A with 10 teams, League B with 10, League C with 8 and League D with 9.

League A: Russia, France, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Czechia, Israel, Hungary, Italy and Germany.
League A Manager is Flavien Aubelle.

League B: Serbia, UK, Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Turkey, Denmark and Belgium
League B Manager is Michal Zubalik.

League C: Lithuania, Finland, Slovakia, Spain, South Africa, Croatia, Slovenia and Greece
League C Manager is Amir Fragman.

League D: Georgia, Bulgaria, Portugal, Cyprus, Belarus, Ireland, Morocco, Kazakhstan and Iceland
League D Manager is Janez Janza.

The schedule will be sent out 20/21 September and the the leagues will start in the beginning of October (2 Oct).

The teams are requested to form their team by 25 September, and each player is requested to send an acknowledgement that they follow the rule of fair play and don't use any outside help (computer or any other assistant) in their PGETC games and accept the decisions announced by the PGETC Arbitration Board.

Cheers,
Vesa

[Uberdude]

and each player is requested to send an acknowledgement that they follow the rule of fair play and don't use any outside help (computer or any other assistant) in their PGETC games and accept the decisions announced by the PGETC Arbitration Board.

I'm not going to do this without seeing some evidence of the pro panel's accuracy as Leela detectors. The Carlo Metta case has shown the importance of an appeal procedure against badly constructed prosecution cases and initial decisions, so scrapping this and "we will get it right first time and you cannot disagree" is a step backwards not forwards in justice.

[Javaness2]

Thanks Vesa - Can you confirm if the pgetc leagues are no longer rated?

[Javaness2]

and each player is requested to send an acknowledgement that they follow the rule of fair play and don't use any outside help (computer or any other assistant) in their PGETC games and accept the decisions announced by the PGETC Arbitration Board.

I'm not going to do this without seeing some evidence of the pro panel's accuracy as Leela detectors. The Carlo Metta case has shown the importance of an appeal procedure against badly constructed prosecution cases and initial decisions, so scrapping this and "we will get it right first time and you cannot disagree" is a step backwards not forwards in justice.

What is the pro panel, and who will assess the pro panel's accuracy?
Given that the 'fair play statement' is only a formality, I don't really see why you care about it. It is not as if we demand that the EGF appeals procedure is regulated properly.

[John Fairbairn]

Given that the 'fair play statement' is only a formality, I don't really see why you care about it. It is not as if we demand that the EGF appeals procedure is regulated properly.

Is it only a formality? It seems to put people between a rock an a hard place.

You can sign up, play, and be falsely accused and disqualified under an improperly regulated procedure, with no recourse to recover your reputation.

Or you can refuse to sign up and accept the possible stigma that you have something to hide.

I don't really know what the solution is, but I'd have thought that at the very least it must include proper regulation of a properly qualified panel. If that is impossible to achieve with current technology or in the time available, well, tough. Two wrongs don't make a right.

As I understand it, Carlo Metta still stands in limbo, with possibly a reputation in tatters because of an improperly regulated procedure. I don't know whether he cheated or not, but the PGETC people still don't either.

I still have every sympathy for the organisers, though. It's a depressing issue all round. The AI bots have been a classic example of "be careful you don't get what you wish for."

FWIW, if I was uberdude, I'd take the risk in signing up. I don't know him personally but from what he's said here, I'd back his reputation over any PGETC accusation and I'm sure others here would. But I'd also expect that in practice the PGETC people would be so apprehensive about the fallout that they would be unlikely to risk acting on any but the most ridiculously egregious cases.

[Javaness2]

As I imagine it...
Last year the process was, claim, judge, if appeal judge again.
This year the process is probably still, claim, judge, if appeal judge again.

Now perhaps my imagination misleads me, but in my head nothing has changed beyond the fact that we are asked at the start to promise not to cheat. Personally I will still take the risk to play and be accused of cheating.

[Uberdude]

What is the pro panel, and who will assess the pro panel's accuracy?

According to an email to team captains (but I've not seen it publicly announced) the pro panel is Yoon Youngsun 8p, Zhao Baolong 2p, and Antti Tormanen 1p. To pre-accept their conclusions a blind test on 100 games with a false positive rate under 2% should satisfy me (a higher false negative rate would be acceptable). I could help with that test. As a warm up they could demonstrate their ability to judge player strength from moves with my little 4 or 6 dan test at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15832.

Given that the 'fair play statement' is only a formality, I don't really see why you care about it. It is not as if we demand that the EGF appeals procedure is regulated properly.

I care because I occasionally beat much stronger players (e.g. Victor Chow 6/7d several years ago, almost Pavol Lisy 1p one time) so if I am accused of cheating to do that and the panel decide I cheated I would like to be able to dispute their conclusion rather than having signed a declaration I agree with them.

I can understand that with the poor use of statistics in the Carlo Meta case the organisers have shied away from using them again and instead opted for human experts, but I don't think it's obvious that being strong at playing Go makes you strong at detecting Leela-cheating. I think a well designed and applied analysis with statistics and comparison to bots a-la Ken Regan in chess would probably be a better judge than 3 pros, but would take time and effort to make. Perhaps the EGF should consider spending some money for a suitably able person/team to create such a tool if volunteers can't do it for free.

As I imagine it...
Last year the process was, claim, judge, if appeal judge again.
This year the process is probably still, claim, judge, if appeal judge again.

My understanding is there is no longer the chance to appeal, the PGETC Arbitration Board's initial decision is final.

[Vesa]

Thanks Vesa - Can you confirm if the pgetc leagues are no longer rated?

Hi Java, no rating of PGETC online games anymore. The decision is written in the AGM 2018 notes.

Cheers,
Vesa

[yakcyll]

My understanding is there is no longer the chance to appeal, the PGETC Arbitration Board's initial decision is final.

Had the same impression upon reading it the first time around; I don't think this requirement, worded this particular way, could be understood differently, unless I am unaware of a way you can officially and fruitfully 'disagree' with an Arbitration Board's decision closing an appeal process.

[Javaness2]

Okay, that's rather different to my imagination. So the professionals will be ruling on all matters - mundane stuff like whether or not somebody showed up on time - or only on cases of suspected cheating?

[bugsti]

I think It is interesting to ask to the Panel Board what do they think about Metta case last year. He will probably play at the same level also this year and I bet every one of his moves will be scanned with every AI at our disposal.

So what the Panel Board is going to do if he will play like last year (when he was acquitted at the end)? They agree with that acquittal?

How many false positive will be among 600 games in PGETC 2018/2019?

How do they recognize and treat false positive?

I wonder how many player will accept this silly new procedure

Not to mention the fact that player cannot appeal against the Board decision, this is the thing that makes me more doubtful. Is that legal under EGF regulation?

[Pangolino]

So what the Panel Board is going to do if he will play like last year (when he was acquitted at the end)? They agree with that acquittal?

He was not acquitted.

"We do not think that it was proven without a reasonable doubt that Carlo Metta broke any rules" means that the first accusation was not solid enough, not that he was proven innocent.
The fact that it was presented in your way in the italian go world was sketchy at best.