First 50 Moves for Review

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:25 am

Hey fellas, I thought I'd ask for your thoughts on a game, since I haven't posted one in awhile (not since I was a few stones weaker). Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

About this game: I'm White. I feel like I lost this game within the first 30 moves or so, but I'm having trouble finding a better course of action (I actually won the game in the end, but I shouldn't have--feel free to ignore moves past 50). I've added further comments in the sgf for the first 50-60 moves.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:10 pm

A few thoughts. Fair warning, a lot of what I'm going to say is stylistic preference. I can't seem to download the SGF, so my suggestions will have to be all text.

4: This seems fine, and reasonable. 5 makes it unlikely that you'll get much on the bottom, so 6 seems forced, after 4. Once alternative that I would consider is approaching directly at P3 or P4, if you want this sort of disruptive idea. After P3, if your opponent claims the empty corner, you can double-approach or taisha, or have any sort of fun.
8: While this is hard to argue against, it forces black's next move, which gives black good potential over that whole right side. You also have good potential on the left, but black becomes spread farther from the side with 9 than you are. At this point, I would consider other options, like O17 (my first thought, as I am used to Kobayashi stuff), N17, K16, and K17. I kind of like WK16, then if BM17 or something, C15 gives you influence and fast development, while making black's top right invasion ripe. As a matter of fact, consider R17 before C15 in that variation?
10: Yes, K4 seems reasonable here. Any group dropped into the left side after that would likely become a relatively weak 2-space jump.
11: Yes. Or tengen.
12 or 14: R17 is getting too big to resist.
16: Maybe a sabaki play to help R14. Q12, Q11, R11, or R10 all look interesting. Of these, I kind of like R10. It threatens to sacrifice R14 to make a stable group below, or do the opposite. Obviously, black will get scary thickness outside if you live inside here, but sabaki play could let you choose between running or living. The problem with your double-approach is that you make your opponent defend again, and both O17 and R14 become weaker.
20: At this point, you're not going to find something to attack around here. I like the shape of the shoulder hit at L16 better. If you could afford to cap K15, that would be great, but he can split you. The shoulder hit buys you space and stays connected better, I think.
24: Yep, K15 is the biggest play for 24 and 25.
45: Black should extend again, to P12. Black needs more liberties to hurt you.
85: Should have been at O14, I think.

Since you only asked us to look at the opening, I'll stop here. If you have any questions about any of this, let me know. And remember your grains of salt.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:05 pm

I don't think you can play white's first four moves unless you are a masochist and really want to play handicap go for the rest of the game.

I'm gonna take a risk and actually call white 8 wrong, as it leads naturally to the position at move 10, in which I feel white is a whole move behind-- and it's black's turn!

As white I like to get around the board faster, which usually means 4-4 stones to me.

daal · Post by **daal** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:44 pm

Two thoughts:

Move 4, your 5-3 is about placing emphasis on the bottom side, but since he has r4 and can play a shimari on his next move, which he does, the bottom side won't be the biggest place on the board, so the stone seems to me misplaced.

After he plays tengen, I understand the impulse to play r14, but I think black is happy to fight in an area where he has such an advantage. What about starting a fight in the middle first, like at M10 or K12, and then decide where to invade after seeing how that plays out?

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:21 pm

I wonder whether a move as early as :w4:

can be bad, but it's at least awkward, or more difficult than a komoku or hoshi. Black's first four moves on the right make a very nice formation, one you'd like to prevent (just 49 occurences in the eidogo database). The easiest way is the wedge, though approaches to the top right are also popular. I do not think the 3-5 plays nicely with that strategy.

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There is probably a good way to play after :w1:

and

, but it is not obvious to me. The press at a seems undesirable, which leads to the more complicated world of pincer variations (well, there's the taisha, but that's a black hole to me).

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:09 pm

I am surprised by how strongly amateurs criticize the first few opening moves of a game. I see nothing wrong for either side with the first dozen or so moves in this game. The position after move 6 has appeared in professional play. In the examples I looked up, B always approached the open W corner, so when he fails to do so, making a second shimari seems entirely natural.

The first question for me comes up in handling the W invasion at move 14. I have no idea whether this particular point is best, but it looks playable. However, when B blocks off the corner, I think W needs to settle this stone immediately, not launch another invasion on the other side of the corner. A second invasion guarantees two weak groups and lots of trouble in the future. At move 16, the simplest W play would be R12, starting to make eye space. If B blocks off the side (say R10), W can jump into the center (say O13), and the group will not come under too severe an attack.

The position at the top makes a W shoulder hit at L16 a perfect reducing move, if W can find the right timing. I would much rather aim at this move than a deeper invasion, especially with one weak group already on the board.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:16 pm

A few comments.

As always, no guarantees.

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:53 pm

Thank you everyone for the reviews. My apologies that my "thank you" is a bit late--I unexpectedly got very busy.

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