Oh my god what a tough game.

oso · Post by **oso** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:39 pm

I really pushed myself playing an 8kyu on the KGS go server, and in the end, I managed to win by the precise amount of komi(I was black, and white had 6.5 komi), after which, I promtly detritus my pants.

I would really appreciate any comments and critique that you guys can give me. I almost had a heart attack playing this game. As always, the sgf file is commented in detail.

CSamurai · Post by **CSamurai** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:00 pm

Just a quick note on a couple of places near the end:

Neither you nor your opponent seems very interested in taking free points in the form of big captures..

201: Capture the 3 stones, that's woth 6 points, and you turn a close game into a 10 point game, which, at that point in the game, is quite broad. Instead, you seal a point that your opponent cannot ever play at. Showed him, I guess.

233, 234: At 233, you must let those 2 stones go. 234 for white /should/ be e7, netting a grand total of 15 points for white, because you wouldn't give up 4 points. However, white doesn't seem to want to win the game, because he wanders off and plays other, smaller points.

Both these mistakes are big for endgame moves, and are the sorts of things that can turn the game around. In fact, if you'd followed the proper sequence there, and given up those two stones, then you would have only won by 2.5 points. However, all this was precipitated 2 moves earlier, at f8. This is a bad idea, all round, since it weakens your connection to your live group, and gives white the chance to capture those 2 stones. Better to just seal at f7 and accept there are no points there.

These are just the things that leapt out at me while I'm excedingly tired, so don't feel like these are the most important moments in the game, but know that white had the game won, and kindly handed it back to you.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:51 pm

A few ideas:

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:06 pm

The first 12 moves are professional quality, and even for both sides. Move 13 should probably be at K3 or G17.

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:44 am

Wouldn't a wide pincer at move 7 work better with the shimari? I would have played that instead.

Two or 3 comments on things that haven't been mentioned:

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:25 am

What happend from the moves 25-38 in the LL-corner is joseki I think, the exact same moves where played by pros.
But I'm impressed how much you know about joseki, I am not as strong as you are but I know nothing about joseki yet.

Anyway nice game but I think you made a BIG mistake at move 233 as CSamurai already said.
Here is a diagram so you can see that this move would have cost you the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B What happens after move 233! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X O . O . . X O X X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O X X O O X X . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . X O , O O O . O O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X O . O O X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O X O O X O X . . | $$ | . X . X X . X O O X O X X X X O . X . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X X . X . X O . O . . | $$ | X X O O O O O O X X . . . O O O O O . | $$ | O X O X X O X O O X X . O . O X X X . | $$ | O O O O X 1 X O O O X . . O X O O X . | $$ | O X O O X X O . . O X . . O X X . . . | $$ | X . O X 2 . O O O X X . . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O X . . O . X O X . . O X X X . . | $$ | . O X X . O . O O O X O O X X O X . X | $$ | . O X , X O . O X X O O . O O O X X O | $$ | . O O X X X O O . X X X O O . . O O O | $$ | . O O O X . X X . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . X X O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I pointed out this mistake because this is a BIG endgame move which most people don't realize since they are so focused on the SMALL endgame moves. But if you look at the diagram you instantly see that its dead! And it is worth 16 points!

You should watch out for these kind of mistake because until this move you where doing a grat job.
Well you connected later in the game so I think you realized your mistake, well luck is also part of the game

Oh and I have a question about move 20: why is it bad? sure it is gote but it is a big move, created a big framework and it would have been a nice point for your extension. Or am I wrong?

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:53 am

Phelan wrote:Wouldn't a wide pincer at move 7 work better with the shimari? I would have played that instead.

Two or 3 comments on things that haven't been mentioned:

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[300]OT[15/600 Canadian]
PW[Engineer]PB[gaseimasha]WR[8k]BR[10k]DT[2011-03-09]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Hello. This game was CLOSE. I almost had a heart attack playing it. As you can see, I am no longer ranked 13k, but now 10k according to the kgs ranking system. Still, I requested a game with an 8kyu and played this game.

In the end, I won by precisely the amount of komi, 6.5 points. I will be commenting the moves:]RE[B+6.50]
;B[qd]BL[278.003]
;W[pp]WL[297.163]
;B[dc]BL[261.54]
;W[dp]WL[293.25]C[I played D17 because I felt that it somehow faced the R16 stone. Even so, I would feel more comfortable if R16 was closer to D17. I wasn't expect him to play Q4.]
;B[ce]BL[242.939]C[So I make the shimari to reinforce the direction of facing R16. I suspect that he won't want me to get a framework, so he'll play around P17.]
;W[od]WL[286.369]C[Ok. It seems he took the high point. Since I believe that the shimari is good for enclosing territory, I decide to take a more territorial approach with this game. So I play the following joseki:]
(;B[oc]BL[228.945]
;W[nc]WL[281]
;B[pc]BL[226.319]
;W[md]WL[280.026]
;B[qf]BL[219.619]C[As you can see, my position is more territorially oriented, while his position favors influence. However, his white stones are facing the D17 shimari, so I don't think they are positioned very well. I think that's to my advantage.]
(;W[ic]WL[277.748]C[I think he played a slow gote move that wasn't very big here. I take sente and the initiative.

[Phelan]: I think this is joseki, and quite a big point. See variation]
;B[qn]BL[205.802]
;W[nq]WL[274.622]
;B[qp]BL[174.556]C[Again, following with my territorial play so far, I decide to go for the corner.]
;W[qq]WL[272.219]
;B[qo]BL[145.411]C[Now this, I believe, was my first real mistake. I made my group heavy. tut tut.]
;W[rq]WL[268.737]C[What the hell?

[Phelan]: Removes your access to the corner, and any base your stones had. It also gets a base for his stones.])
(;W[jq]C[[Phelan]:If White tenuki...]
;B[jc]C[[Phelan]:This attacks white's stones while making a framework]))
(;B[lc]C[[Phelan]:I like this one, it seems to work better with the shimari. I may be wrong.]))

A few comments on your comments, and the original game.

I don't intend this as criticism, the comments are good, but I find the opening interesting and think that it is worth emphasising the breadth and depth of available good sequences.

5: As others have said these moves are fine, and you (oso) are thinking well about them. Your first 3 stones make a very well researched black shape, though it is no longer as popular as it used to be.

7: Good. This is the most common professional move by some way.

As has been noted, it is not obvious why this should be the case. It encourages white to make a strong group in the shimari's area of influence. The reason it is okay is that it is using that influence in a slightly different way - after the joseki, black has a good amount of solid territory that's essentially unassailable. White has strength, but no real territory...and white also has aji. At move 13 and onwards, both players are eyeing up G17 and F17 as massive points. If white takes F17, it is gote, but makes white much stronger...but gote at the wrong time in the opening can be a terrible mistkae. If black tkaes F17 it is almost sente against the white group, but if white responds (J15 is normal) white is even stronger than before and nigh unattackable. As a side note, white can ignore G17 and the group will be fine, but it will be difficult and complex to protect if it black invades, which white doesn't usually want.

So, essentially, black has used his shimari's strength to give white something to think about, whilst taking territory and sente to play (in this game) R6. This is a perfectly good way to use strength, you don't have to develop from it to get your full profit. Black even has, as stated, G17 later as a not unreasonable sente extension from the shimari.

On the other hand, playing a pincer to white's stone is also a very reasonable way of playing, and is clearly fine because it builds from the strength of the shimari. The two space high pincer (M16) is most common, essentially for reasons of joseki - the position is incredibly deeply researched due to its previous popularity. The one space low pincer (N17) is next most popular, for the same reason.

Phelan's suggestion, the two space low pincer (M17), is obvious to play but is not a common professional move for different reasons. In this particular position, I don't have a record of it being used at all. I think this is probably partly because the joseki variations just aren't good for black (a professional reason not to play it), but also it is too low. White wants to settle lightly here and make a good shape on the bottom side, and can aim to do this by leaning on the M17 stone. White Q14, for instance, seems likely to let white become strong - at which point the M17 stone may become weak and poorly placed. If it is pincered, black might prefer it to be high.

12: Oso: This is not slow, it is a very good move. It both makes white strong, and reduces the potential of the shimari. If white omits it, black M17 is a superb move which destroys white's shape and builds very nicely with the shimari.

15: Oso: Don't be so eager to follow through the territorial thing. If you take it too far, white just ends up with the entire centre and there's nothing you can do. The problem here is, R4 isn't usually great, because it's attaching to white's stone - but black doesn't need to do this because black isn't weak. After white R3, black has the problem that the R4 stone is weak, and white is looking to take the initiative. It is usually better to play S4 if you want to play in this area, so as not to cause this. Q10 is a simple alternative also, or maybe Q9.

17: Very bad, this stone does not help your shape. S3 is usually the correct move now, but I'll let you work out why yourself

18: You say 'What the hell?', but white's move is excellent. Black's stones have no base, and white has the entire corner in solid territory. White is very pleased with the situation now.

Edit: some more comments

21: Good, this is probably the most open area.

23: The three point extension isn't particulary normal in this shape, becasue of the H3 weakness. If white plays D2 now, black has a problem, and cannot settle by attacking because white is very strong on both sides. D2 is probably better, followed by C3 then J3 in most cases. That would leave black nicely settled and with the M3 extension available later.

24: This white move is very good, it severely limits the shimari, prevents black's sente/massive G17 move, and makes white very strong with territory on the top. It definitely does something useful!

25: Your plan is good, but you cannot just 'take the corner' consequence free. In particular, you cannot generally take the corner and also expect to take the outside - taking the corner will inevitably weaken the outer group because white can prevent the connection (but doesn't have to). However, your chosen move actually aims to reduce the corner, which is quite reasonable. D3 is bad for the same reason R3 was, D2 is probably better for black.

27: Your move is the shapemove. D2 is rubbish, if you have to play there then D3 was a terrible mistake. To look at it another way, D2 is the same as playing D2 first, white answering at C3, then black playing D3 - in this case, the D3 move makes no sense, it doesn't protect anything, and it invites white to take the corner. C2 gives white a couple of problems to think about, and offers an exchange, though a full discussion of the move would be very long

28: This is a classic mistake. You can look up why

.

35: Probably better to just capture. This leaves more aji at E4.

37: Bad, pushing from behind to fix the E4 weakness. It would be better to have played E4, and be able to jump to D7 now (if this is the area you choose to play).

oso · Post by **oso** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:38 am

Edlee, I want to thank you for giving me some great, concise feedback and variations for me to chew on. You are really truly strong and I always get a lot of ideas and a clear picture of my mistakes with you commenting.

Also, amnal, your comments are truly helpful, and I want to let you know that I would be lost without you. Not only because of your insight, but because of the depth that you go into. You are very clear and easy to underustand.

Phelan, I'd like to thank you for commenting, too, because I'm always brightened up when I see your suggestions. You're near my level, and so I see your suggestions and I think, "Oh wow! I didn't think of that!" It's inspirational and I can relate to your wavelength.

Also, blade90, I'd like to thank you for commenting as well. Yeah, I did make a huge mistake. Argh! I need to study more! Hurr... :study:

Emeraldemon, thanks for commenting, and I'll take your commment as an incentive to get better.

CSamurai: I valued your advice most of all. Especially because the endgame is probably my weakest point. You're right. This game could have been a disaster for me at that one point. So I'm glad I came out on top, but that's no excuse not to improve.

Thanks everyone. I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner, but it looks like my internet service is going to be limited for the forseable future. So I might not be on as often as I'd like.

I'll try to be on from time to time though.
hurr... :study:

Life In 19x19

Oh my god what a tough game.

Oh my god what a tough game.

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