Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4

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Joaz Banbeck
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Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I've been reading "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - The Korean Style" from Kisedo. ( It is heavy on diagrams, with little connective text. But if you work at it, you can get some of the idea of what is going on. )

There are problems in the back of the book. I'm starting on them, to see if I have really learned anything. I invite others to join me. ( I took a break of a few month, but now I'm back at it )

Which is better for white's next move, 'a' or 'b'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by Redundant »

I'm too lazy to count the stones. Whose turn is it to play?
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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by hyperpape »

White. That's pretty lazy.
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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by daniel_the_smith »

If those are the options, then

I will play 'b' and wonder how anyone could even think about playing in another area of the board.
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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by lovely »

daniel_the_smith wrote:If those are the options, then

I will play 'b' and wonder how anyone could even think about playing in another area of the board.


I agree completely. It's the old adage of "urgent points before big points".
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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by Dusk Eagle »

'b', because if black gets it both white groups start to look thin. 'b' gives black one weak group vs white's one weak group, but white's at least has a base already.
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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by moonrabbit »

Maybe I shouldn't admit that I would play 'a' in this position. :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . Y . c . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . Y . @ . . @ . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To my eye, after White 'b', Black 'c', and white's two stone group :ws: is in trouble. It seems difficult to attack Black's two stones :bt: profitably because White is weak locally. So I would prefer to take a big point and build influence towards the center, indirectly attacking :bt:.

Putting it another way, as Black I probably wouldn't play 'b' as it doesn't seem to attack anything severely, but I would certainly play in the vicinity of 'a', reducing the influence of White's upper right group, and building some influence to help with the fight on the bottom. So White should take the good point on the top.
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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by hyperpape »

@moonrabbit
I too was indecisive. But I think the key point is Dusk Eagle's--it's about keeping White's groups a little stronger. I personally was hung up on lacking a good attack that I could see, but the stone still has to keep you a little stronger, even if you can't really attack.

Maybe you can attack--I'm not good at attacking, honestly.
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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by Psychee »

When being ask 'a' or 'b', I'd say 'b'. But in real game, I think i'll play 'a'.
求而不得
舍而不能

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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by Psychee »

moonrabbit wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't admit that I would play 'a' in this position. :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . Y . c . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . Y . @ . . @ . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To my eye, after White 'b', Black 'c', and white's two stone group :ws: is in trouble. It seems difficult to attack Black's two stones :bt: profitably because White is weak locally. So I would prefer to take a big point and build influence towards the center, indirectly attacking :bt:.

Putting it another way, as Black I probably wouldn't play 'b' as it doesn't seem to attack anything severely, but I would certainly play in the vicinity of 'a', reducing the influence of White's upper right group, and building some influence to help with the fight on the bottom. So White should take the good point on the top.


I'm actually thinking why don't white play 'c' and then 'a'?
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舍而不能

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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by Dusk Eagle »

I was indecisive too, until I pictured a black stone at 'b' :)
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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by moonrabbit »

Psychee wrote:
moonrabbit wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't admit that I would play 'a' in this position. :-?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . Y . c . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . Y . @ . . @ . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To my eye, after White 'b', Black 'c', and white's two stone group :ws: is in trouble. It seems difficult to attack Black's two stones :bt: profitably because White is weak locally. So I would prefer to take a big point and build influence towards the center, indirectly attacking :bt:.

Putting it another way, as Black I probably wouldn't play 'b' as it doesn't seem to attack anything severely, but I would certainly play in the vicinity of 'a', reducing the influence of White's upper right group, and building some influence to help with the fight on the bottom. So White should take the good point on the top.


I'm actually thinking why don't white play 'c' and then 'a'?


White 'c', Black 'b' just induces black to get stronger (pushing from behind.) It seems better to leave that exchange unplayed for the moment. Of course, White first at 'a' lets Black play first on the bottom, but then you have the big point on top.

Also, the lower right enclosure has a lot of bad aji in this position, so W can probably use that to either live locally with the two stone group or inside the corner. I'm not sure exactly what sequences are best there, though. Maybe leaning at P5 is okay if black takes 'b'.

Another thing to think about is that the last big fuseki point (after 'a') is the approach/enclosure in the upper left at C15. Whoever gets sente to play there should be happy, I think.
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Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I have not been able to formulate a coherent reason for either one being better. So I finally peeked.

Dictionary of Modern Fuseki wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc The correct answer.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 3 . . . . 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's extension to 1 is the key point. With the sequence to 3, white maintains the territorial balance. This is a good result for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Failure
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . 1 . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . X . 2 . . 3 . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . X . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White 1 is not reasonable. Black 2 and 4 are good moves, leaving white's stones at the bottom feeling a bit thin. White will have to spend a move defending them, so he has lost the initiative.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4

Post by Dusk Eagle »

So most of us are wrong :D
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Re: Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - problem 4

Post by snorri »

'b' is the wrong direction of play.
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