I've been reading "A Dictionary of Modern Fuseki - The Korean Style" from Kisedo. ( It is heavy on diagrams, with little connective text. But if you work at it, you can get some of the idea of what is going on. )
There are problems in the back of the book. I'm starting on them, to see if I have really learned anything. I invite others to join me. ( I took a break of a few month, but now I'm back at it )
Which is better for white's next move, 'a' or 'b'?
I'm too lazy to count the stones. Whose turn is it to play?
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:50 pm
by hyperpape
White. That's pretty lazy.
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:36 pm
by daniel_the_smith
If those are the options, then
I will play 'b' and wonder how anyone could even think about playing in another area of the board.
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:54 pm
by lovely
daniel_the_smith wrote:If those are the options, then
I will play 'b' and wonder how anyone could even think about playing in another area of the board.
I agree completely. It's the old adage of "urgent points before big points".
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:10 am
by Dusk Eagle
'b', because if black gets it both white groups start to look thin. 'b' gives black one weak group vs white's one weak group, but white's at least has a base already.
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:13 am
by moonrabbit
Maybe I shouldn't admit that I would play 'a' in this position.
To my eye, after White 'b', Black 'c', and white's two stone group is in trouble. It seems difficult to attack Black's two stones profitably because White is weak locally. So I would prefer to take a big point and build influence towards the center, indirectly attacking .
Putting it another way, as Black I probably wouldn't play 'b' as it doesn't seem to attack anything severely, but I would certainly play in the vicinity of 'a', reducing the influence of White's upper right group, and building some influence to help with the fight on the bottom. So White should take the good point on the top.
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:30 am
by hyperpape
@moonrabbit
I too was indecisive. But I think the key point is Dusk Eagle's--it's about keeping White's groups a little stronger. I personally was hung up on lacking a good attack that I could see, but the stone still has to keep you a little stronger, even if you can't really attack.
Maybe you can attack--I'm not good at attacking, honestly.
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:37 am
by Psychee
When being ask 'a' or 'b', I'd say 'b'. But in real game, I think i'll play 'a'.
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:40 am
by Psychee
moonrabbit wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't admit that I would play 'a' in this position.
To my eye, after White 'b', Black 'c', and white's two stone group is in trouble. It seems difficult to attack Black's two stones profitably because White is weak locally. So I would prefer to take a big point and build influence towards the center, indirectly attacking .
Putting it another way, as Black I probably wouldn't play 'b' as it doesn't seem to attack anything severely, but I would certainly play in the vicinity of 'a', reducing the influence of White's upper right group, and building some influence to help with the fight on the bottom. So White should take the good point on the top.
I'm actually thinking why don't white play 'c' and then 'a'?
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:49 am
by Dusk Eagle
I was indecisive too, until I pictured a black stone at 'b'
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:54 am
by moonrabbit
Psychee wrote:
moonrabbit wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't admit that I would play 'a' in this position.
To my eye, after White 'b', Black 'c', and white's two stone group is in trouble. It seems difficult to attack Black's two stones profitably because White is weak locally. So I would prefer to take a big point and build influence towards the center, indirectly attacking .
Putting it another way, as Black I probably wouldn't play 'b' as it doesn't seem to attack anything severely, but I would certainly play in the vicinity of 'a', reducing the influence of White's upper right group, and building some influence to help with the fight on the bottom. So White should take the good point on the top.
I'm actually thinking why don't white play 'c' and then 'a'?
White 'c', Black 'b' just induces black to get stronger (pushing from behind.) It seems better to leave that exchange unplayed for the moment. Of course, White first at 'a' lets Black play first on the bottom, but then you have the big point on top.
Also, the lower right enclosure has a lot of bad aji in this position, so W can probably use that to either live locally with the two stone group or inside the corner. I'm not sure exactly what sequences are best there, though. Maybe leaning at P5 is okay if black takes 'b'.
Another thing to think about is that the last big fuseki point (after 'a') is the approach/enclosure in the upper left at C15. Whoever gets sente to play there should be happy, I think.
Re: Dictionary of Moder Fuseki - problem 4
Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:54 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
I have not been able to formulate a coherent reason for either one being better. So I finally peeked.
White 1 is not reasonable. Black 2 and 4 are good moves, leaving white's stones at the bottom feeling a bit thin. White will have to spend a move defending them, so he has lost the initiative.
is in trouble. It seems difficult to attack Black's two stones 
profitably because White is weak locally. So I would prefer to take a big point and build influence towards the center, indirectly attacking 
