KGS 6k against 2k

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:00 am

I played this even game against a 2k on KGS. My opponent gave me some chances, so I could have lost by more.
I lost by 15.5 points, which is not bad I guess. In this game I played really slowly and used my time as good as possible.

It would be great if anyone can review this game and point out soe mistakes, I also have some questions:
1. Should I answer :w16:

, if yes how?
2. Was it possible for me to kill the White group on the right side?
3. :b45:

I played this because living in the corner looked harder and smaller, was my choice bad?
4. After :w52:

I have build a nice wall, should I have played K15, K14 or F13 instead of :b53:

?
5. :54: Should I answer this?
6. :w76:

How to respond here? I thought I cut and this 1 stone can't live in this small area.
7. :w104: was it possible to kill this group?

Here is the game:

mlund · Post by **mlund** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:08 am

Move

confused me. Even if O11 doesn't look urgent to you, why did N15 seem like the biggest move on the board to you at the time?

- Marty Lund

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:43 am

mlund wrote:Move confused me. Even if O11 doesn't look urgent to you, why did N15 seem like the biggest move on the board to you at the time?

- Marty Lund

Is dealing with the eye space of the white group, for example if I play O11 I don't really have an answer to O17.
And if white lives inside she destroys my territory.
N16 threatens M17 (securing the top for me) and O11 (completely sourround white). It also avoids White to make 2 easy eyes.
And I also thought White's cut at O11 doesn't work, which I had misread. But the overall goal of N16 was simply a deal: "you live and I get the top, and if you miraculously die I will be very happy".

I hope that clears your confusion about my choice.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:06 pm

17: Move 16 is a normal way to reduce a shimari. It isn't usually great unless black has a wide double wing formation (allowing white sabaki options that are good for him). If black just has a shimari, this is often slack, because it carries no threat. Moves like O4, Q5 and Q6 are normal; here, the choice doesn't seem very important.

Your actual move is a bit slack, perhaps. It gives white the possibility of R6 to split you up, and on its own is merely an overextension that doesn't threaten the white group at R14. A better idea is perhaps O4, to develop the more interesting bottom side, though this means giving white the right side.

19: Just bad shape unless you intend to cut, but maybe it's forgivable.

21: I want to cut and hope for the best - giving white the right is okay if you do something big on the bottom. And white's shape is quite poor.

I don't know if you ever had a chance to kill on the right, but I wouldn't bet on it. Sealing it in was bit, though.

45: This move is a bit rubbish, it doesn't give you good shape, and white can easily connect underneath for a big corner. I think it is more interesting (and better shape) to play something like E14.

53: Perhaps the easiest way to use your strength is something like E10, trying to increase your command of the centre in sente (and with a reduction threat if white tenukis). Then you can play something large scale in the middle.

55: I would probably play K13 and hope for the best. No comment on whether I think this is actually good

I don't have answers to the rest of your questions, so I'll stop here.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:08 pm

blade90 wrote:
mlund wrote:Move confused me. Even if O11 doesn't look urgent to you, why did N15 seem like the biggest move on the board to you at the time?

- Marty Lund

... which I had misread...

I hope that clears your confusion about my choice.

Yes, that does clarify your choice. Thanks.

Seriously though, have you realized that :b97:

is probably the losing move? The thinking behind it turned out to be wrong: both tactically and strategically (in that the top is not the key to the game). Black was strong at the top and therefore could absorb whatever White might do there with little real effect. Meanwhile Black had many weak points in the center, which White used to devastate Black's position. Issues of strength and weakness are normally much more important than territory in the middle game.

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:01 am

ez4u wrote:Yes, that does clarify your choice. Thanks.

Seriously though, have you realized that is probably the losing move? The thinking behind it turned out to be wrong: both tactically and strategically (in that the top is not the key to the game). Black was strong at the top and therefore could absorb whatever White might do there with little real effect. Meanwhile Black had many weak points in the center, which White used to devastate Black's position. Issues of strength and weakness are normally much more important than territory in the middle game.

I understand what you mean but I'm not sure what to do with the strenght in the center.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:38 pm

blade90 wrote:
ez4u wrote:Yes, that does clarify your choice. Thanks.

Seriously though, have you realized that is probably the losing move? The thinking behind it turned out to be wrong: both tactically and strategically (in that the top is not the key to the game). Black was strong at the top and therefore could absorb whatever White might do there with little real effect. Meanwhile Black had many weak points in the center, which White used to devastate Black's position. Issues of strength and weakness are normally much more important than territory in the middle game.

I understand what you mean but I'm not sure what to do with the strength in the center.

OK, let's look at the situation...

I would probably play M10 (marked stone below) instead of O11. Then if :w1:

as you indicated, what is the situation after :b2:

? White is not yet alive, right? If :w3:

for example, :b4:

prevents an eye on the side (similarly if White at 4, Black at 3 does the same). So White has to live with :w5:

, leaving Black with sente. Even if you are not confident of perhaps cutting at 7, how does it look after something calm like :w6:

through

(maybe exchange "a" for "b" first)? I think Black is better here. Black does not have to find some spectacular success in the center. Overall, Black already seems to be ahead in territory, so it is enough to settle the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X . . . . 4 . 3 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . X . X X O . . 2 . . X X . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . O X O 1 X . X . O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . O X O . O X . . O . | $$ | . . b a . . . . . X X O . O . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X O O . . 5 X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . O O . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . B . . . , . X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . 8 . 6 7 O O . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . O O X . . . . . , . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . X . X . . X . . O . . . O X . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:19 am

Thanks ez4u that explains it very good.

@amnal: thank you, this helps me!

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:18 am

11 is a mistake. It worked out okay in game, but it shouldn't have. Having gotten this far you need to play K17.

Here's the thing:
1. If you want more claim on the top (which is what you say when you play O16), you need to finish it off with a move at K17 or thereabouts. If you don't play here, and white approaches your corner, you pretty much have to respond for very few points, and white can lightly jump back and claim most of the top. That is, you're leaving a sente play for white. One that's big enough that white could probably take it immediately (if you don't respond, white can scoop out your base, and now you have a weak group on the run).
2. If you want sente to approach one of white's 3-4 stones, play O16 at O17 (3rd line). That gives you stability and you can take sente. Alternatively, you can just ignore white's approach to your 4-4 and approach one of his 3-4 stones.
3. You shouldn't reasonably expect to get sente out of approaching the bottom left corner. Generally speaking, the approach-er to a corner loses sente. The fact that you did get sente feels like white made a mistake.

Post by **Solomon** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:34 pm

Numsgil wrote:11 is a mistake. It worked out okay in game, but it shouldn't have. Having gotten this far you need to play K17.

Here's the thing:
1. If you want more claim on the top (which is what you say when you play O16), you need to finish it off with a move at K17 or thereabouts. If you don't play here, and white approaches your corner, you pretty much have to respond for very few points, and white can lightly jump back and claim most of the top. That is, you're leaving a sente play for white. One that's big enough that white could probably take it immediately (if you don't respond, white can scoop out your base, and now you have a weak group on the run).
2. If you want sente to approach one of white's 3-4 stones, play O16 at O17 (3rd line). That gives you stability and you can take sente. Alternatively, you can just ignore white's approach to your 4-4 and approach one of his 3-4 stones.
3. You shouldn't reasonably expect to get sente out of approaching the bottom left corner. Generally speaking, the approach-er to a corner loses sente. The fact that you did get sente feels like white made a mistake.

I might have to disagree. Even if White approaches the top right with a move like M17, it is very easy to move out to the center because O16 is high. Furthermore, Black still has S17 to make base if he needs to if White gets strong in the area (which he isn't currently). For instance:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Gu Li 9p (B) vs. Yamashita Keigo 9p (W) $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

Yamashita prioritizes a two-space extension on the right over 'a', even though White can always make an extension by miai there.

Another example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Liu Xing 9p (B) vs. Fang Jie 7p (W) $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . 8 . . 5 . . 9 . . . . . 0 . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

In this case, a corner approach is prioritized. And in this game, a move around 'a' for B or 'b' for W was never made.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm11 Shao Weigang 6p (B) vs. Yang Hui 8p (W) $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]

And here, again an extension at 'a' for White looks fine, but instead White chooses to..well, I'm not sure but yeah.

And just to make myself clear, I am not saying it's bad to make an extension. In fact, I think it's simpler and perfectly fine in almost all cases, including the game the OP posted. However, I also think there are times when it's not unreasonable to tenuki, even when the board has very few stones.

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:30 pm

I agree with Araban and I have seen some professionals not play the extension, but the reason why I did not play 1 as in the diagram below is because of the variation shown in the diagram.
Maybe 5 should be at 'a' and 6 could be also on 'b' or 'c', but the variation on the diagram is what I thought will happen if I make an extension at :b1:

and to me it looks like I (black) am at a disadvantage considering that my opponent is better at reading and fighting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 11 to 16 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 4 . 1 . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 5 . X . X . O . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O , . . . 6 . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . c b . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:41 pm

I would like to go back to the very beginning. This formation is a well-known measure against the Chinese fuseki. GoGoD has nearly 2,000 games starting this way (~800) or with a White stone on "a" (~1,200). The point is that White threatens to make a low shimari at "b" next, which will naturally counter any outward-facing ambitions that Black might have on the lower half of the board. About 95% of the time, Black responds to White rather than finishing the position on the right side of the board. Black nearly always plays an approach to the lower left corner. Both the high and low approaches are common. Making a shimari in the lower right is playing as White would like. White should have naturally continued with a play at "b".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

KGS 6k against 2k

KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k

Re: KGS 6k against 2k