My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

shapenaji · Post by **shapenaji** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:22 pm

Hey folks,

Well, I drew Yongfei Gei round 1, so, my odds weren't great. But my opening was good and I got a solid lead going into the middle-game. Then I lost control on the left side.

Then he just obliterated me in the endgame.

Ideas would be great here, I had a great opportunity at the start, but this (at least to me) throws my weaknesses into sharp relief.

(I was black, w had 7.5 Komi, AGA rules)

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:53 pm

Not sure at all, but instead of the keima approach to the lower left, would a wedge somewhere around C9 be safer?

Also, the K12 stones seem really important - once white captures he is completely solid. I would be tempted to pull it out first before moving on the left side.

Move 81 at B8 first? Then you can still break through at D11 while giving less around D8. The danger is that white is also more solid in the area, but feels like the aji left from B8 should be enough for safety.

Eizero · Post by **Eizero** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:07 pm

I'd prefer to play thick, so I'd go q7 at move 25. After white cut you, white seemed to force quite a lot of moves.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:19 pm

The lower right is fascinating. Is this joseki?

I wish you wouldn't play moves like 51 at J4. It gave me whiplash when looking at your game.

How about K14 instead? It keeps the presure on at a large scale.
By playing J4 you captured three stones at L3/L4/M3, let him form a wall facing the open left side, and let him get K14. This does not look good for you, IMHO.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:29 pm

Eizero wrote:I'd prefer to play thick, so I'd go q7 at move 25. After white cut you, white seemed to force quite a lot of moves.

If you are going to take gote to play thick, why not play p7 instead of q7? There is little chance of whit cutting after q7, but why not be completely solid if you want to be solid?

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:54 pm

Q7 fixes the Q4 aji, I think. I still prefer the game move, though.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:19 pm

The r10 move is one I have seen with a black mini-chinese at the top. Not sure how much difference the 4-4 makes, I suppose it means an approach on the right is locally a fine move, unlike approaching a 3-4 from the outside. In this shape s8 is normally r7 which helps the corner more but attacks r10 less. As you have a 4-4 at top right I think r10 is stronger than in the mini-chinese, so I think I would prefer to play r7. But I'm not criticising s8 as I've not done any reading, just waffling.

k6 made me jump. You are worried about l8? Can you just slog it out it white cuts? I'd want to k12 to keep attacking at m13 next. I agree capturing those stones at the bottom was not worth abandoning k12. Yeah its's nice cash and k12 isn't dead yet, but it's annoying to run out and such a shift in the balance of power.

shapenaji · Post by **shapenaji** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:20 pm

Eizero wrote:I'd prefer to play thick, so I'd go q7 at move 25. After white cut you, white seemed to force quite a lot of moves.

Yeah, I thought about that afterward, but I was okay with a fight starting, I wasn't worried about the cut, and his group wasn't really doing anything until I gave up the K12 stones. I got more forcing moves than him from his cut.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:The lower right is fascinating. Is this joseki?

I wish you wouldn't play moves like 51 at J4. It gave me whiplash when looking at your game. How about K14 instead? It keeps the presure on at a large scale.
By playing J4 you captured three stones at L3/L4/M3, let him form a wall facing the open left side, and let him get K14. This does not look good for you, IMHO.

Don't know if it's joseki, but the 1-jump down is kind've my ideal spot for invasion out of this fuseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . O X X . . . | $$ | . . X , O O . 3 . O . . . O O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So I figured it made sense to just take that first spot, it's hard for him to easily fix the issues there, and it helps my other stone. I was really happy with that result actually. I'm going to play around with this one more.

K14 is big, but I didn't really feel like I had any more attacks there and I didn't want him to settle his bottom side. Yongfei agreed that the result on the bottom side was better for me.
EDIT: I think J4 is right, I just don't think I should kakari the bottom left.
I think illuck is right, My problem was giving them up afterward, they were really important stones.

I guess I fell into a trap there, I had a lead, so I figured, just go take big points, if he wants to spend 2 moves capturing the center, good for him, I'll take the top side, reduce the left and I'm ahead... I should have kept fighting. It's what I'm best at. After that, there weren't really any targets for me any more.

shapenaji · Post by **shapenaji** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:26 pm

L18 was also a huge mistake, K18 was correct. I lost at least 15 points there

shapenaji · Post by **shapenaji** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:32 pm

For people who want a reference for the discussion about the lower right corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc More like this... $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 0 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 6 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 5 . , 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Cont...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc More like this... $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O X 3 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 8 . X 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

yoyoma · Post by **yoyoma** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:22 pm

What about O17 at P17 instead? White still make a ko in the corner.

After black O17 white still made a ko in the corner. Do you think it be P17 instead?

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:38 pm

illluck wrote:Q7 fixes the Q4 aji, I think. I still prefer the game move, though.

I want to know why q7 is bettr than p7. p7 completely connects the groups, but q7 leaves a lader doesnt it?

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:33 pm

If black P7, then later white can play Q4. With black Q7 white Q4 is self-atari. The ladder aji is there with black P7, but I think that black isn't that weak in the area at the moment (in other words, white needs more strength AND a ladder break for the cut to be a big threat).

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:19 am

GoGoD has 139 examples of White playing behind the pincer with W8 (the earliest in 1927). The most frequent reply by Black is at R7 (65 cases)! There are eight games with B9 as played, two of which were answered with W10. Both of those continued in the corner with Black playing as below. In the game shown, Black played in at "a" next.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Kong Jie (White) - Yi Ch'ang-ho, 14th Samsung Cup 2009-09-11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 7 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . 8 . . , . X . . O 3 X . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . 4 1 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I also think that B51 was off the mark and should have been at the top. After something like L14 White has to be careful about making eyes. If there is indeed no attack left at the top then B43 must have been a mistake. J4 looks incorrect. The O4 stone is not going anywhere so actually White probably gains more in the lower left than Black does on the bottom side. Plus White gains sente to play first at the top.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:07 am

illluck wrote:If black P7, then later white can play Q4. With black Q7 white Q4 is self-atari. The ladder aji is there with black P7, but I think that black isn't that weak in the area at the moment (in other words, white needs more strength AND a ladder break for the cut to be a big threat).

Yes, I see. Q4 is not a threat, then. I agree there isn't much threat of ladder the other way, but if it weren't for the Q4 idea, I think eliminating a ladder totally is better than not. But Q4 is what I was curious about.

Life In 19x19

My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

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Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated

Re: My Chunlan cup game, review appreciated