Scoring Error

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mw42
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Scoring Error

Post by mw42 »

I just thought this example of Tygem's auto-scoring mistake was interesting as it doesn't happen that frequently. The relevant board position was thus

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Simplified Position
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O a X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . W . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I played the marked stone during endgame so I wouldn't have to kill black's four inside stones. It obviously sets up miai to make an eye, but at the scoring stage it counted the position as seki. As there is no way to mark a group as dead, I had to go back to play and place a stone at (a) for it to count as territory.
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pwaldron
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Re: Scoring Error

Post by pwaldron »

You're right, although I'll point out that you didn't need to play anything to keep the territory. a and b below are miai for two eyes if black tries anything funny.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Simplified Position
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . b X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . a O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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mw42
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Re: Scoring Error

Post by mw42 »

True, but in the actual game that miai did not exist. I didn't feel like copying the exact position, but I see now that my simplification was not perfect.
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shapenaji
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Re: Scoring Error

Post by shapenaji »

pwaldron wrote:You're right, although I'll point out that you didn't need to play anything to keep the territory. a and b below are miai for two eyes if black tries anything funny.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Simplified Position
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . b X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . a O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



You sure Phil?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Simplified Position
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 1 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 5 . X O X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 4 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Simplified Position
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 1 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 5 . X O X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 4 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


EDIT: This works though

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Simplified Position
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 1 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 4 X O X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 2 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


EDIT 2: Second diagram I entered 5 wrong, fix'd. But my point was just that order is important here, "a" in the original diagram doesn't set up the shortage.


EDIT 3: Scratch that, I'm just wrong

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Simplified Position
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 8 1 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 5 . X O X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O 6 4 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O 3 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 7 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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mw42
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Re: Scoring Error

Post by mw42 »

You guys are attacking that example with some vigor. For the sake of clarity, here is a more exact representation of the board position

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Simplified Position
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X O X , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . W . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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mw42
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Re: Scoring Error

Post by mw42 »

Hmm, apparently I've just been lucky not to encounter these before. Here is another from a game I just played

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Simplified Position
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X O B . X . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O . X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O O O O X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I played the marked move to convince the scorer that the white group was dead. It makes me wonder what you are supposed to do when this affects the outcome of the game.
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shapenaji
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Re: Scoring Error

Post by shapenaji »

mw42 wrote:I played the marked move to convince the scorer that the white group was dead. It makes me wonder what you are supposed to do when this affects the outcome of the game.


Play chinese rules. KGS doesn't really have a system for resolving disputes in their "Japanese" rules set...
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oren
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Re: Scoring Error

Post by oren »

shapenaji wrote:Play chinese rules. KGS doesn't really have a system for resolving disputes in their "Japanese" rules set...


This started as a Tygem issue. You have no choice of rule sets there.
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shapenaji
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Re: Scoring Error

Post by shapenaji »

oren wrote:
shapenaji wrote:Play chinese rules. KGS doesn't really have a system for resolving disputes in their "Japanese" rules set...


This started as a Tygem issue. You have no choice of rule sets there.


There's no area scoring option in Tygem? That seems really odd...
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