Fuller board = slower moves?

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:31 pm

Following on from the other thread about ideal game time (summary: better to get lots of experience at 10 seconds per move than over-think and aim for perfect play), I am finding that the further I get into each game, the longer each move takes.

It seems that the more stones there are on the board, the more time I need to spend checking the status of all my groups, to ensure that a recent move by my opponent has not endangered them in some way.

Particularly in the endgame, it feels like I need to re-calculate every potential move on every turn, to establish which is the biggest move to play.

When my groups get bigger, as they tend to do at the end, I become paranoid about losing one due to not noticing that something seemingly unimportant has happened elsewhere on the board.

This is also the time at which my poor old brain gets tired.

Is this idea of needing longer as the board fills up common among players?

If not, any tips for dealing with when things become more critical and complicated towards the end of the game?

BaghwanB · Post by **BaghwanB** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:46 pm

Seems to me that once you have assured yourself a group has 2 eyes then pushes and pulls on it turn into a matter of points as opposed to a life and death situation. And as "they" say: Make yourself strong before attacking. "Strong" in this sense often means 100% live groups.

I'd suggest assuring yourself of eyes ASAP on any groups that are "important" to you. Once you know that status, you can move onto other aspects in a given game. As your play progresses it'll be easier to make this kind of evaluation but in the short-term do what you need to to give yourself security.

Bruce "Cyclops" Young

billywoods · Post by **billywoods** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:15 pm

If it's of any use, professionals tend to spend significant chunks of their time on the opening. Personally I spend most time on the middlegame, and very little time in endgame. It's not a bad thing to get used to checking your groups often, though.

BaghwanB wrote:I'd suggest assuring yourself of eyes ASAP on any groups that are "important" to you.

Really? I'd generally suggest assuring yourself of eyes as late as possible - before it becomes inconvenient, of course. Defensive moves played before there's any real threat to defend against are just as bad as dying.

Nyine · Post by **Nyine** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:30 pm

I'm just a beginner like you, Peter, but for me the middle game is where I spend most of the time.

At the opening, I consider the best moves as good as possible but without stopping for too much time. I think that most of my answers are almost automatic when I see a particular shape or open spot. Sometimes I see an opening I have not seen before and then I consume more time on it, but it's not usual right now.

At the endgame, almost everything is settled. You don't spend too much time (at least at my level) thinking on great moves because most of them are just closing ones, though it's true that for us beginners sometimes we can not see a very small vital point on the board and turn completely the match in favor of the opponent for that single mistake. But overall no, I don't spend much time on the endgame.

It's the middle game what keeps me more busy. Attacks, counter-attacks, the constant fight for the center and trying to find the balance between protecting your groups and attacking your opponent's ones... this is where I spend most of my time, because I know that a small mistake can cut my groups in two, allow an invasion or who knows. Sadly, this is also where I use to lose most of the matches since I don't know how to deal with adversaries whose experience can overcome my instint and my small knowledge.

So, in short, middle game is where the time is spent! ...though I heard that pros spend most of the time in the opening, since it's really hard to turn the tables if you get on the wrong side when the opening stage ends.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:43 pm

PeterPeter wrote:Following on from the other thread about ideal game time (summary: better to get lots of experience at 10 seconds per move than over-think and aim for perfect play), I am finding that the further I get into each game, the longer each move takes.

It seems that the more stones there are on the board, the more time I need to spend checking the status of all my groups, to ensure that a recent move by my opponent has not endangered them in some way.

Particularly in the endgame, it feels like I need to re-calculate every potential move on every turn, to establish which is the biggest move to play.

When my groups get bigger, as they tend to do at the end, I become paranoid about losing one due to not noticing that something seemingly unimportant has happened elsewhere on the board.

This is also the time at which my poor old brain gets tired.

Is this idea of needing longer as the board fills up common among players?

If not, any tips for dealing with when things become more critical and complicated towards the end of the game?

Play on smaller boards. They fill up sooner.

As a beginner, you are right to take care at the end of the game. The problem can be summed up in one phrase: shortage of liberties.

I am serious about playing on small boards. (Even though I did not do that. More below.) Shortage of liberties is more acute on small boards.

I would advise not playing (much) on boards larger than 9x9 until you can play the endgame quickly, making most endgame moves in 5 sec. or less. (Sometimes you may have to think for a minute or two, though.

)

Even 9 kyus and 10 kyus have trouble with shortage of liberties. And even 5 kyus occasionally end play when they have a good move somewhere because of shortage of liberties or life and death.

Most of the time, the relative shortage of liberties at the end of the game only requires being careful and seizing opportunities when your opponent is not careful. Sometimes it involves tesuji.

I have always played the endgame quickly. Why? Even when I was a beginner, trying to read out local situations, my early reading paid off later in the game. I was aware of the shortage of liberties to come.

Now, everybody is different, and I am not recommending that you do what I did. You are taking care when the shortage of liberties looms large. Very good.

Keep it up.

Look at it this way. The problems with shortage of liberties at the end of the game are much easier, as a rule, than the L group or the J group or a lot of other tsumego problems.

They make good practice.

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:51 pm

Bill is quite right: I don’t get this on a 9x9 board, I get it a little on 13x13, and a lot on 19x19.

I'll try to give one example of what slows me down.

When the board is still relatively clear, I manage to isolate an enemy group. I can see that I can kill it any time I want by making a few forcing moves, but I don’t waste any moves doing so, although it is quite tempting. So it stays on the board.

All the while there is clear space around that group, I am happy.

Then the board fills up, and enemy stones close in on that group from various directions. It is less immediately obvious whether I can still kill it. I have been tripped up a few times like that in the past.

Anyway, there are probably a few little situations like that across the board. Some are definitely alive (2 eyes), some are definitely dead, and the rest are at varying degrees of safety. I find it hard to keep track of the status of all of them, so I end up re-calculating them all every time my opponent makes a move. As a result, my play slows right down.

billywoods · Post by **billywoods** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:46 pm

PeterPeter wrote:I manage to isolate an enemy group. I can see that I can kill it any time I want by making a few forcing moves, but I don’t waste any moves doing so

Why not? It's tempting for a reason - if it's anything more than a couple of stones, it's probably worth a lot of points. It is worth not only the captures you will make, but also the territory that the group used to contain and the territory nearby. An example:

In fact, even if you don't kill the group entirely, if you take away its eyespace and send it jumping into the centre looking for life, you usually profit anyway by continuing to attack it.

PeterPeter wrote:I find it hard to keep track of the status of all of them

This will probably come with practice.

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:42 am

I was thinking of groups which are dead but I have not played the necessary moves to physically remove those stones from the board, rather than those groups which are unsettled.

Sometimes, groups which should be dead can actually be rescued as the board fills up, liberties run out and the enemy stones get much closer.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:49 am

PeterPeter wrote:I can see that I can kill it any time I want by making a few forcing moves, but I don’t waste any moves doing so

PeterPeter wrote:I was thinking of groups which are dead but I have not played the necessary moves to physically remove those stones from the board, rather than those groups which are unsettled.

Right -- you did not mean "kill it" -- it's already dead, you cannot kill it any more -- you meant "capture it and remove the stones from the board."

PeterPeter wrote:Sometimes, groups which should be dead can actually be rescued as the board fills up, liberties run out and the enemy stones get much closer.

Correct. Important lesson: captured stones removed from the board can never hurt your live groups or your game;
the same cannot be said of "dead" enemy stones still sitting un-captured on the board.

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:43 am

EdLee wrote:Important lesson: captured stones removed from the board can never hurt your live groups or your game;
the same cannot be said of "dead" enemy stones still sitting un-captured on the board.

Yes, that's it.

I don't suppose dan players do it, but do kyu players sometimes spend a move they don't need to removing a dead group from the board, to simplify and avoid risking a loss elsewhere? Assume that with accurate reading, the risk is negligible.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:27 am

PeterPeter wrote:I don't suppose dan players do it, but do kyu players sometimes spend a move they don't need to removing a dead group from the board,
to simplify and avoid risking a loss elsewhere? Assume that with accurate reading, the risk is negligible.

This is not limited to kyu levels; at dan levels or even pro levels, if one side is sufficiently ahead,
and such a move removes a lot of bad aji for the winning side, in effect securing a sure win, they sometimes do it.

billywoods · Post by **billywoods** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:04 am

PeterPeter wrote:I was thinking of groups which are dead but I have not played the necessary moves to physically remove those stones from the board, rather than those groups which are unsettled.

Sometimes, groups which should be dead can actually be rescued as the board fills up, liberties run out and the enemy stones get much closer.

Ah, I see. That is definitely a case of reading.

Perhaps you can show us a game where this happened, if you're unsure about it?

xed_over · Post by **xed_over** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:32 pm

I call those groups "zombies". the walking dead.

zombies are dead, but not buried. they can come back to life and eat your brains out if you're not careful.

I've been killed by zombies many times.

Life In 19x19

Fuller board = slower moves?

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