Do dan players hate criticism?

[RobertJasiek]

In http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... =10&t=9152 it has been observed that dan players did not frequently comment on games in L19, often has suggested that dan players did not like criticism and Kirby has asked whether I liked criticism.

Presumably, there are various reasons why dan players do not (too) frequently comment on games in L19. E.g., part of them might lack the necessary time or dislike the diagram editing in L19. Would they not comment because of being afraid of criticism? IMO, this is no consideration for them, but a few dans might have a different opinion.

often's remark, if it is not a joke, is plainly wrong, because there are dans that like criticism. There is, however, a difference between different kinds of criticism. Correct criticism would be appreciated much more easily than factually wrong criticism, meta-discussion instead of facts-orientated criticism etc.

This brings me directly to Kirby's question: I like correct, facts-orientated criticism, while I dislike factually wrong criticism. Etc.

[John Fairbairn]

Is Dr Sheldon Cooper in the room? Time for the Mom tesuji?

[gogameguru]

There is, however, a difference between different kinds of criticism.

At least a priori statements like this are beyond criticism. Or are they?

[often]

oh this will be fun

my comment was half joking and half true
... ok 1/4 joking 3/4 true
... ok all true
... but it's just a theory (haha)

i'll put two reasons why i think this and i'm sure you'll come up with your responses

1.
as you get stronger you definitley have your own way of doing things. for example, if you play an aggressive style and a dan 2 stones stronger than you who plays a more passive style reviews your game, what he suggests and plays may not be what you'd want to do or ever listen to at all. in that way, the criticism that is given wouldn't be applicable to you or your style, so why would you listen to it.

2.
think of the rank difference between a 10k and an 8k, is that rank difference that much different than a 2d and a 4d? is that rank difference that much greater in a 7d and a 5d? some can argue yes, but i'm not going to say that it's so much that the higher ranked person will know -exactly- what to do every time.
only when someone is mountain-loads stronger can you really provide better analysis. (cue my professional chinese go teacher argument)
for example a 1d might not be right about things, but he'll have a better idea of what to play than a 10k will (but please don't go asking 1ds for help if you're 10k)

the more amusing thing is
you always hear kyu level players talk about getting a teacher, or needing to study more, etc etc etc
you rarely hear that kind of drive in dan level players. in fact, if you talk to most go teachers, they rarely have any consistent dan level students. i wonder why? (rhetoric, i don't have an answer here)

but do i think dan players hate criticism?
sure i'll go ahead and make a blanket statement about dans and say that

bring it. haha.

[leichtloeslich]

if you play an aggressive style and a dan 2 stones stronger than you who plays a more passive style reviews your game, what he suggests and plays may not be what you'd want to do or ever listen to at all.

The dan-student you're portraying here sounds like a rather close-minded person. An attribute that will hinder progress at any rank, really.
At any rate, it sounds to me like you're overestimating the relevance of "style" in go. A player 2 stones stronger will be able to point out a lot of mistakes to his "student", regardless of "style".

you always hear kyu level players talk about getting a teacher, or needing to study more, etc etc etc
you rarely hear that kind of drive in dan level players.

How about new professional players/inseis etc.? Don't a lot of them have teachers of sorts?

Here in the West it should also be taken under consideration that there aren't a lot of very strong teachers available. For example, if you're KGS 5d, would you really take lessons from a KGS 6d? Probably not. I'd say a 4-5 stone difference is at a bare minimum for a teacher that you're going to pay.

I'm not going to address the issue of the usefulness for kyu players to get a teacher, but I have doubts it has significant advantages over self-study.


Either way, your whole "argument" sounds like a bunch of anecdotal evidence which you broadly generalized.

[logan]

[...]

if you talk to most go teachers, they rarely have any consistent dan level students.

[...]

For me this aspect was circumstance and habit. The strongest local player was a 5k, so after that I had to figure out everything on my own, and I was never interested in spending money for an online teacher. Some years later, whenever another mid/high dan and I were able to attend the local meetings once a month we would always end up spending our evenings teaching the other players and reviewing their games. Maybe the last 20-minutes of the night we would have some time to talk about a few new variations or patterns we saw.

[gowan]

Speaking as an amateur dan player, I'm hesitant to make many comments because, even though I'm around 5d in strength I don't feel confident in making statements to the effect that such and such is the best move. Personally I'm happy to have "criticism" of my own games provided I think the critic knows what he/she is talking about. When watching pro matches on the internet I'm always astounded by the inept or arrogant criticisms of pro play by mid kyu level players.

[RobertJasiek]

think of the rank difference between a 10k and an 8k, is that rank difference that much different than a 2d and a 4d? is that rank difference that much greater in a 7d and a 5d?

The rank difference is similar, but there are very great differences WRT effort and knowledge increments.

only when someone is mountain-loads stronger can you really provide better analysis.

You overlook the possibility of someone having much more knowledge despite an only small rank difference.

I'd say a 4-5 stone difference is at a bare minimum for a teacher that you're going to pay.

If the teacher has very much knowledge and the pupil has relatively little knowledge, some 0.5 ranks difference suffice IMX. (Otherwise I would not have had pupils improving from 1k/1d to ca. 4.5d.)

[oren]

I find the topic a bit ironic, since you have mentioned many times that you rejected teachings from stronger players.

[RobertJasiek]

You make a wrong generalisation from my teaching skill to other teachers' skill, overlooking e.g. that I need a teacher that a) points out my major playing weaknesses quickly (I do not know such a teacher) and b) teaches general ideas instead of examples only (I know only a few such teachers).

[Bill Spight]

Do dan players hate criticism?

How do you think they got to be dan players?

[often]

1. At any rate, it sounds to me like you're overestimating the relevance of "style" in go. A player 2 stones stronger will be able to point out a lot of mistakes to his "student", regardless of "style".

2. How about new professional players/inseis etc.? Don't a lot of them have teachers of sorts?
Here in the West it should also be taken under consideration that there aren't a lot of very strong teachers available. For example, if you're KGS 5d, would you really take lessons from a KGS 6d? Probably not. I'd say a 4-5 stone difference is at a bare minimum for a teacher that you're going to pay.

3. I'm not going to address the issue of the usefulness for kyu players to get a teacher, but I have doubts it has significant advantages over self-study.

1. In terms of "criticism" i'm just saying stronger dans pointing out issues to weaker dans. not really a teacher student thing. If you don't agree, that's fine. There have been things that a stronger dan has pointed out to me in my game that my teacher doesn't even cover. I've asked why it's different and she's said "well, they don't really know much better. and they play a different game than you, what they're comfortable with and what you are is different"

2. I guess when i say "dan players" i'm referring to the dan players that we typically see that are amateurs (be it L19, AGA, Europe, etc). As for "not a lot of strong teachers" i disagree. The internet has opened it up teaching Go to anybody and everybody.

3. This I strongly disagree with, but it's a completley different topic.

I'll get to Bobby J's comments in another post.

[SoDesuNe]

Speaking as an amateur dan player, I'm hesitant to make many comments because, even though I'm around 5d in strength I don't feel confident in making statements to the effect that such and such is the best move. Personally I'm happy to have "criticism" of my own games provided I think the critic knows what he/she is talking about. When watching pro matches on the internet I'm always astounded by the inept or arrogant criticisms of pro play by mid kyu level players.

Arrogant criticism can only be judged from a higher level, I think. So even when you as a 5-dan don't feel confident in "making statements to the effect that such and such is the best move", you will be likely much closer (or maybe even on point) to the right move than the majority of players below your strength.
In the end there are (as of now) just 112 EGF-rated players 5-dan or stronger (according to their GoR-points) out of 6485 players with a EGF-rank. When even this strong elite feels inapt to comment on games, fearing some 6-dan (33 in total), 7-dan (6), 8-dan (4) or professional player (who also disagree wholeheartly at times) might come along and call them out, then from whom should we weaker players learn?

I prefer playing according to a 5-dan's misconceptions than to my own 1-dan ones ; )

[oren]

You make a wrong generalisation from my teaching skill to other teachers' skill, overlooking e.g. that I need a teacher that a) points out my major playing weaknesses quickly (I do not know such a teacher) and b) teaches general ideas instead of examples only (I know only a few such teachers).

No, I'm making an obervation that you choose not to be in a position to have your skills criticized. I just think it's interesting. You certainly could use some lessons just like everyone else trying to get stronger.

[HermanHiddema]

Presumably, there are various reasons why dan players do not (too) frequently comment on games in L19. E.g., part of them might lack the necessary time

Absolutely this! I find it hard to keep comments short, I want to go all out and create a million diagrams, but I lack the tine for that. I know I could (and perhaps should), comment with just a few general remarks, but somehow I don't.

or dislike the diagram editing in L19.

Plug: http://hiddema.nl/diagrammer/