Logical players, intuitive players ..

[hyperpape]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2556

Penrose's views of consciousness are special.

[SmoothOper]

You are confusing known truths with truths. There are obviously many unknown truths, for instance the value of x = 2349820948239048239056829046837279325897893472854789234798532 * 23904802981290582903859023890582349085903482590345890238542, which had not ever been computed* prior to my posting this comment. But this morning it was still true that there was a truth there.

* At least, it's extremely unlikely that it had been.

I appreciate your explanation, that there are truths in go only they are unknown, and your example as well, which is a computational problem, like factoring large primes. Factoring large primes is a game. If you knew how to factor any prime then you could essentially hack any system you wanted, since most encryption is based on people not being able to factor large primes. It isn't that the perfect information to do so isn't there, it is just that it would take even current state of the art computer systems a very long time to do so. So again not a logical game, maybe a computational game.

[cyclops]

The esteemed mathematical physicist Roger Penrose has argued that to understand human consciousnous we need to understand quantum gravity. Now that Robert has established this is not the case I look forward to him publishing his research on the matter so that civilisation's understanding of this fascinating and profound subject is advanced.

I also read Penrose's [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind"]book[/url]. The claims you refer to are only speculations, call it intuitions. I think RJ can pospone his publishing until RP has backed up his hypothesises with some more evidence.

BTW I liked most parts of the book but were sceptical towards the theories you refer to.

[HermanHiddema]

So here's an experiment to see how logical/intuitive players are.

Here's a go problem. Please time yourself. How long did it take you to solve? How strong are you?

Black to play and live.

$$B
$$ ------------------------
$$ . . . . X . . O X X . . .
$$ . O . O X . . X O . O O .
$$ . . . O X O O X O . . . .
$$ . . . O X O X X O . O . .
$$ . . . O X X X . O . . . .
$$ . . . O O O O O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ------------------------
$$ . . . . X . . O X X . . .
$$ . O . O X . . X O . O O .
$$ . . . O X O O X O . . . .
$$ . . . O X O X X O . O . .
$$ . . . O X X X . O . . . .
$$ . . . O O O O O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

[shapenaji]

So here's an experiment to see how logical/intuitive players are.

Here's a go problem. Please time yourself. How long did it take you to solve? How strong are you?

Black to play and live.

$$B
$$ ------------------------
$$ . . . . X . . O X X . . .
$$ . O . O X . . X O . O O .
$$ . . . O X O O X O . . . .
$$ . . . O X O X X O . O . .
$$ . . . O X X X . O . . . .
$$ . . . O O O O O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ------------------------
$$ . . . . X . . O X X . . .
$$ . O . O X . . X O . O O .
$$ . . . O X O O X O . . . .
$$ . . . O X O X X O . O . .
$$ . . . O X X X . O . . . .
$$ . . . O O O O O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

About 3 seconds, but I've seen similar problems before.

[speedchase]

$$B
$$ ------------------------
$$ . . . . X 3 2 O X X . . .
$$ . O . O X 1 . X O . O O .
$$ . . . O X O O X O . . . .
$$ . . . O X O X X O . O . .
$$ . . . O X X X . O . . . .
$$ . . . O O O O O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ------------------------
$$ . . . . X 3 2 O X X . . .
$$ . O . O X 1 . X O . O O .
$$ . . . O X O O X O . . . .
$$ . . . O X O X X O . O . .
$$ . . . O X X X . O . . . .
$$ . . . O O O O O . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

It took me about a minute, what does that mean about me being logical vs intuitive?

[Splatted]

Somewhere between 1 and 2 minutes (same solution as speedchase), but what does that tell us? Was I slow because I'm a logical player that thinks things through carefully, or was I slow because I usually rely on intuition and so am bad at reading things out?

[HermanHiddema]

Somewhere between 1 and 2 minutes (same solution as speedchase), but what does that tell us? Was I slow because I'm a logical player that thinks things through carefully, or was I slow because I usually rely on intuition and so am bad at reading things out?

You were not slow. I've seen players around 3 kyu give up after 5-10 minutes without solving it.

[Splatted]

That's certainly nice to hear.

I always thought I was really slow. XD

[jts]

What's strange is that I looked at it, had to close the window, and solved it in my head... and when I looked back, it was mirrored. Herman, did you play with the orientation of the diagram for some reason?

[illluck]

About 20 seconds to see the move (more accurately, refute the obviously wrong alternatives) and another 20-30 seconds to verify, KGS 2-3d (but I've also seen the problem before and so know what the goal is).

[skydyr]

As a 2-4 kyu, I think it took me a minute, maybe 2. What I'm wondering is how this is supposed to show a distinction between logical and intuitive players?

[speedchase]

I think the point is that the problem is counter intuitive, so if you can solve it just like any other tsumego, you are very logical, but if it is especially difficult for you, then you are intuitive

[Loons]

Conversely, I am in the same boots as Shapenaji. "Oh, it's one of these".

[HermanHiddema]

I think the point is that the problem is counter intuitive, so if you can solve it just like any other tsumego, you are very logical, but if it is especially difficult for you, then you are intuitive

Yes.

There are only four possible moves, as there is clearly no escape to the outside. There are, then, only three possible answers. And for black's second move, only two moves left. Basically, there are only 4 x 3 x 2 = 24 lines of play to check. A 20 kyu with just some basic knowledge of eyes and dead shapes should be able to solve this by going through all of them systematically.

I've seen a 8 kyu solve it in about 30 seconds, but I've seen strong kyu players fail to solve it.

And these same strong kyu players were able to solve a problem like this:

$$W White to play and kill.
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O . O . .
$$ | . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X O . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W White to play and kill.
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . . X O . O . .
$$ | . O . X O . . . .
$$ | X X X X O . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Which has many more points to consider, and a much longer main line.

So these players do not consider every line of play, even in a very small space. They consider only moves which they find intuitive. At some fundamental level, they do not approach the game logically, they approach it intuitively. And they are not weaker players for it.