Walls and influence in a nutshell

[Thunkd]

It's not the best example, but consider the board with some bog-standard black moves added elsewhere:

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . W . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . W . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . B . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . W . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . W . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Who got more with their three moves?


Bear in mind that to make the entire bottom territory, black would have had to spend several moves there as well, and white would still be able to reduce.

I agree that black's stones are much more useful here... but is this better than the situation if black pincers the invasion stone? For someone trying to learn how to best use walls and influence I'm struggling with knowing when its better to let an invasion live. It seems like pincering, building up the lower right and then getting sente to play somewhere (?? not sure best move after that) might be just as good or better than this result. Or am I misunderstanding the situation?

The consensus is that black ought to just pincer in the example given earlier of where you might use a wall to tenuki. So who has some ideas of how to modify the position slightly such that tenuki is worth considering?

Here's one thought to start things rolling:

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White escapes from a pincer easily, so the position doesn't feel urgent to me any more. If black didn't have a wall, he might have to play locally to keep white from playing on the left and sealing him in.

But aren't the reasons that it's not urgent for black the same reasons why it might not be urgent for white? The threat of the pincer before was severe and made life for the white stones really difficult. That's one reason why making a base was such a huge move for white. In this position it looks like white has mia... either make a base or run towards the helper stone. Or if nothing else white can play lightly with the invasion stone and reduce. So a lot of the damage to blacks potential is already accomplished and it feels like white can afford to match black's move elsewhere without leaving this situation in too dire a state.

[skydyr]

I agree that black's stones are much more useful here... but is this better than the situation if black pincers the invasion stone? For someone trying to learn how to best use walls and influence I'm struggling with knowing when its better to let an invasion live. It seems like pincering, building up the lower right and then getting sente to play somewhere (?? not sure best move after that) might be just as good or better than this result. Or am I misunderstanding the situation?

Well, as mentioned, this was a bad example. But it works in that black ends up well off in either situation, so you can see how white's move being too close to thickness was a bad move for white. Whatever black does, white takes a big loss.

The consensus is that black ought to just pincer in the example given earlier of where you might use a wall to tenuki. So who has some ideas of how to modify the position slightly such that tenuki is worth considering?

Here's one thought to start things rolling:

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White escapes from a pincer easily, so the position doesn't feel urgent to me any more. If black didn't have a wall, he might have to play locally to keep white from playing on the left and sealing him in.

But aren't the reasons that it's not urgent for black the same reasons why it might not be urgent for white? The threat of the pincer before was severe and made life for the white stones really difficult. That's one reason why making a base was such a huge move for white. In this position it looks like white has mia... either make a base or run towards the helper stone. Or if nothing else white can play lightly with the invasion stone and reduce. So a lot of the damage to blacks potential is already accomplished and it feels like white can afford to match black's move elsewhere without leaving this situation in too dire a state.

Well, as you said, white's move was slow, so black can just take a big point. Missing stones aside, in this position the point one to the right of the right side star point is so gigantically large I can't imagine black wanting anything but it or a similar move.

[Polama]

But aren't the reasons that it's not urgent for black the same reasons why it might not be urgent for white? The threat of the pincer before was severe and made life for the white stones really difficult. That's one reason why making a base was such a huge move for white. In this position it looks like white has mia... either make a base or run towards the helper stone. Or if nothing else white can play lightly with the invasion stone and reduce. So a lot of the damage to blacks potential is already accomplished and it feels like white can afford to match black's move elsewhere without leaving this situation in too dire a state.

That was my thought as well, that it look miai, Presumably white played h7, black said "what a weirdo" and tenuki'd, white played the 3-3 invasion out, then white played h3. Black says "didn't there used to be more black stones on the board?" and then tenuki's again. Here it looks like maybe black blocked on the wrong side, although I imagine we could add stones on the left to make a block that way less interesting.

Stepping back, was the original tenuki bad?

$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . O . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-------------------[/go]

Even if we're determined not to take some other path with the 3-3 invasion, it's hard to believe a local move is urgent for black.

So white invades the 3-3, we end up with the original diagram, and again the area doesn't look urgent for black. So I wouldn't say black let his potential get damaged, I'd say he sold it for two gote moves by white.

And additionally, although white has options the group isn't settled by any means. If a fight spills into the center from any of the other 3 sides, white might be forced to come back and establish a base. So black can calmly wait for a better chance to attack later.

And what if white gets his extension on the bottom and connection and this all just becomes boring yose?

$$B
$$ | . O X . . X . O . . . O . . X . . X . |
$$ | . O X . . X . O . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . X . O . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O . , . O . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O O . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . O X . . X . O . . . O . . X . . X . |
$$ | . O X . . X . O . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . X . O . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O . , . O . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . O . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X O . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O O . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White's position looks hard to develop and not end up over-concentrated.

Basically, I think we can look at white's efforts at counteracting black's influence as greedy, and that black can do fine just taking big points and saying "ok, prove that your moves had value."

[quantumf]

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'd like to elaborate on this example. White has played 3 moves in this area, because he needed to limit the possibility of this wall turning into a large territorial framework. However, because black is so strong, white has to play quite a few moves to ensure that he has a viable shape. If the white stones get any points at all,they will be negligible. Black need not immediately or directly attack these stones, and can instead cash in on the 'investment' of the wall by playing big points elsewhere. Of course, he can attack the stones. It's up to him. So an additional benefit of the thickness/influence is more options. Or, put another way, although you may be behind in points, you're more likely to be control of the tempo and nature of the game.

I still don't get this. So after the initial white stone played close to black's wall, black tenukis and white establishes a base. Black can get another free move somewhere else as well. Admittedly white won't get many points here, but so much of blacks potential in the area has been destroyed. And perhaps this is offset by his free moves elsewhere... but a simple pincer after white's initial move lets black easily harry the white stone while developing the right side. If white jumps you can follow for a move or two. Then you can tenuki and take a big move elsewhere. You still let white live, white is still not making territory (even less actually) and you get one fewer free move somewhere else, but I don't see a single move that can create as much potential as the bottom right that you were able to build up. Is this really a good example of where to tenuki a white invasion?

It is perhaps not a fantastic example, and as a 9k I would recommend pincering and attacking in any situation remotely like this. However, as you get stronger, your opponents will learn to play a little cautiously around your walls, but you will still be tempted to KILL. These attacks will then often fail and you may end up with a bad result. Judging when it's better to tenuki will take some time to figure out. The point I'm trying to make is that quite often you can accept that your opponent's safe wall-negating move is probably on a dame point, and you can consider it a time to cash in your investment and play a big territorial point somewhere.

[Thunkd]

Judging when it's better to tenuki will take some time to figure out. The point I'm trying to make is that quite often you can accept that your opponent's safe wall-negating move is probably on a dame point, and you can consider it a time to cash in your investment and play a big territorial point somewhere.

Well, in the future I will definitely think about whether it makes more sense to try and use the wall for attack and profit or if it makes more sense to tenuki. Which will be interesting at least.

[oiseaux]

$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . W . . O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'd like to elaborate on this example. White has played 3 moves in this area, because he needed to limit the possibility of this wall turning into a large territorial framework. However, because black is so strong, white has to play quite a few moves to ensure that he has a viable shape. If the white stones get any points at all,they will be negligible. Black need not immediately or directly attack these stones, and can instead cash in on the 'investment' of the wall by playing big points elsewhere. Of course, he can attack the stones. It's up to him. So an additional benefit of the thickness/influence is more options. Or, put another way, although you may be behind in points, you're more likely to be control of the tempo and nature of the game.

I still don't get this. So after the initial white stone played close to black's wall, black tenukis and white establishes a base. Black can get another free move somewhere else as well. Admittedly white won't get many points here, but so much of blacks potential in the area has been destroyed. And perhaps this is offset by his free moves elsewhere... but a simple pincer after white's initial move lets black easily harry the white stone while developing the right side. If white jumps you can follow for a move or two. Then you can tenuki and take a big move elsewhere. You still let white live, white is still not making territory (even less actually) and you get one fewer free move somewhere else, but I don't see a single move that can create as much potential as the bottom right that you were able to build up. Is this really a good example of where to tenuki a white invasion?

I would say that you have to completely erase from your mind the idea that this huge outer wall is an attempt to make territory. It's not! It's used to strengthen your ability to attack opponents elsewhere on the board, and in turn, make territory elsewhere.

[Thunkd]

I would say that you have to completely erase from your mind the idea that this huge outer wall is an attempt to make territory. It's not! It's used to strengthen your ability to attack opponents elsewhere on the board, and in turn, make territory elsewhere.

But it does that partially through the threat of making territory right? I mean if I completely ignore it, it can certainly turn into territory. And the threat that it might is what eventually forces someone into trying to prevent it from easily doing so. And that's when it turns into a great way to attack.

If we imagine that I could immediately plop down a small group that was unequivocally alive that ruined any territory here (without actually taking any moves on my part) then the usefulness of the wall is greatly diminished, correct? I don't have to create some foolhardy invasion to ruin the potential here anymore and I don't have to worry about fights elsewhere helping to make this area into territory. So yes, I can still be attacked by being pushed towards this wall, but without the threat of territory here I'm not likely to want to play near the wall anyway.

If I'm misunderstanding this, could you give me an example of how one would use this wall when the usefulness of this wall for territory has been ruined? Something other than getting free moves attacking the stones that destroyed the potential for territory (as I understand that those moves are a normal use of a wall but rely on the threat of turning a wall into territory which is not what you say walls are for).

[SmoothOper]

Here is an example of a wall dying. Hong Kipyo vs. Lee Changho, Lee went on to win the tournament.