Kirby's Study Journal

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:11 pm

I lost this game.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:15 pm

daal wrote:I haven´t read all of these self-commented games, but I´m really enjoying them so far!

Thanks, daal. I'm enjoying them as well, even though I've lost a few.

daal wrote:Minor note: in the game from post 5, his monkey jump at n1 doesn't work - you can still capture the three stones with P2.

What if he plays P1 in response to P2?

daal wrote: It was funny to see this sequence starting at black 21 at R5 as it's one of the few moves that I know how to punish, and one which I was told stops happening around 7k.

Yes, I was surprised, too.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:08 pm

I won this game.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:07 pm

ez4u wrote:I think you have unrealistic expectations for what you can read/notice in a 10-second game. Watch the 9d's, they lose track of the big picture all the time in blitz. Pros do too. But as for life in this game...
$$Bc Life in the Final Position; 5 connects
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O X X X X . O . X X . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X O O O X . . . O . X . X . |
$$ | . X X X O . X . . X O O . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . X O . O O O O X O . . O X O O . |
$$ | . X X . X X X X X X X . . O . O X X . |
$$ | . X O O . . O X O . X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O O a . . . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . O X 0 X X X O 9 b . O O O O X X X . |
$$ | . O X O O X . X X 8 . X . X O X O . . |
$$ | . O X O X X O 6 2 7 c . O O X . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O X 4 O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O O . X X O X 1 O X . . . O . . . . |
$$ | O . O . 3 O X X O O X O O . O X X X . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O . O O X X . X O O O . |
$$ | . X . X O X X O O X X X . . X O . . . |
$$ | X O X O O O O O X . . X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . O X . O . . . . X X . . O . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Life in the Final Position; 5 connects $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . O X . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . O O X O O X X X X . O . X X . . . . | $$ | . X O X X X O O O X . . . O . X . X . | $$ | . X X X O . X . . X O O . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . X O . O O O O X O . . O X O O . | $$ | . X X . X X X X X X X . . O . O X X . | $$ | . X O O . . O X O . X . . . O . . . . | $$ | . O X O O O O O a . . . . X X O O O . | $$ | . O X 0 X X X O 9 b . O O O O X X X . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X 8 . X . X O X O . . | $$ | . O X O X X O 6 2 7 c . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . O O X 4 O . . X . X . . . | $$ | . O O . X X O X 1 O X . . . O . . . . | $$ | O . O . 3 O X X O O X O O . O X X X . | $$ | . O X X X X O O . O O X X . X O O O . | $$ | . X . X O X X O O X X X . . X O . . . | $$ | X O X O O O O O X . . X X X O O . . . | $$ | . O X . O . . . . X X . . O . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The gap at prevents White for cutting you off. Black connects at "a" next and reduces the center at the same time. Black is still in the game. If White "a" instead of 10, Black plays atari at "b", White has to capture at "c" and Black connects at 10, capturing White's center stones.

I just had time to look at this sequence more in depth, and it's pretty beautiful. Thanks again for sharing.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:09 pm

yoyoma · Post by **yoyoma** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:26 pm

You lost almost a whole move by playing E14 instead of E17!

leichtloeslich · Post by **leichtloeslich** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:29 pm

kirby wrote:I was told E17 is best here. But I prefer E14. I can't get my head around E17 being better, and I think he'll answer.

Of course he'll answer, that's hardly the point. E14 first is a huge mistake.
Joseki is E17 first, since if you play E17 first your opponent has to avoid dying and play B13, after which you'll still get E14. But much more importantly: you'll get sente. (If you exchange E14 first you'll end in gote, which is a serious problem.)

Theoretically white could also D13 instead of B13 to deny E14 to black, but that leaves worse aji on the side.

Either way, the important thing to note is that you were supposed to get sente here.

edit: guess yoyoma beat me to it :P

yoyoma · Post by **yoyoma** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:38 pm

I didn't post a detailed explanation because I was curious to see how Kirby would respond.

Kirby, I saw other posts where you ask pros for advice on how to improve. They said play quick games, and you are playing those quick games. But in the comments I see "I've heard this isn't right, but I don't see why". Did you look at a joseki book? Eidogo shows this joseki and explains why you lost a move.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:17 pm

yoyoma wrote:I didn't post a detailed explanation because I was curious to see how Kirby would respond.

Kirby, I saw other posts where you ask pros for advice on how to improve. They said play quick games, and you are playing those quick games. But in the comments I see "I've heard this isn't right, but I don't see why". Did you look at a joseki book? Eidogo shows this joseki and explains why you lost a move.

Thanks, yoyoma and leichtloeslich. That's awesome. I never knew that it was because of the difference between sente and gote. That's really fascinating, and now I know the reason for that order. I felt that I heard that the other move was right, but I didn't realize this sente/gote fact, so I couldn't make myself play it.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:56 pm

In the game notes at move 26 (W at F5) in Post 20, Kirby wrote:Hmm, E5 would have been honte for him. I'll try to punish him.

From my copy of GoGoD...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Continuations when White Answers the Marked Stone $$ $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . a . . . . . . $$| . . O , X O b . i g f e $$| . . . O O X B . h d c . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$+ - - - - - - - - - - - -[/go]

Code: Select all

Statistics:
261 matches

Wa:    217 (207)
Wb:    33 (21)
Wc:    3 (2)
Wd:    3 (2)
We:    1 (1)
Wf:    1 (1)
Wg:    1 (0)
Wh:    1 (0)
Wi:    1 (1)

So standing at F5 in the game is the standard play and there is no example from pro play of the "honte" at E5. Punishing this baby may be more difficult than we expect! :blackeye:

"It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so."
- Artemus Ward, 19th century American humorist

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:02 pm

Interesting, ez4u. I thought solidly capturing would be superior, since I could get the forcing move in. I think my forcing move was sloppy, though, don't you?

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:04 pm

By the way, are there examples with white influence along the left side? I feel this is relevant in the current situation.

P.S. You are my role model, ez4u.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:56 am

My impression was that D6 or D10 were too early, and that black could have kept the game even by just playing calmly on the right or top sides. Just a sanrensei or something like leaves black developing on a much larger scale than white.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:07 am

Kirby wrote:By the way, are there examples with white influence along the left side? I feel this is relevant in the current situation.

P.S. You are my role model, ez4u.

Flattery will get you everywhere!

Let's step back to the beginning with our database...

In 437 games from the position below, Black played :b1:

265 times (the low approach at 2 was the choice 112 times). Basically Black does not want to play san-ren-sei and let White blunt the formation with a shimari at 2 or some other play on the bottom. (Note however, that the 16 times in GoGoD that Black went ahead and played 1 at Q10, the results are about even so as always YMMV)

About 70% of the time White goes ahead and attaches underneath at :w2:

. In return Black almost always plays the hane at :b3:

. This is natural since Black's potential framework from the upper right wrapping around the lower right to the lower left is bigger than White's framework on the left side (this is important!!!).

In the 182 games where White pulls back at :w4:

, we see that Black connects at :b5:

145 times, plays the hanging connection at "a" 27 times, jumps into the center at "b" (invented by Takemiya of course) 7 times, plays on the right at "c" twice, and plays in the upper left (at "d") a grand total of once. Now repeat after me, "This is natural since Black's potential framework from the upper right wrapping around the lower right to the lower left is bigger than White's framework on the left side (this is important!!!)."

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . c . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , 1 5 a . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Currently I think you way over-value sente. Note that in this game, as in nearly every game, :b1:

,

, and

below were ALL gote. What were you knitwits tinking? How could you make four gote moves in a row? Weren't you worried about that! :rambo:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Four Gote Moves in a Row!!!! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Actually the database shows that :w4:

is pretty much sente. However, in order to ensure that, White has to play a low move relative to the left and entice Black into playing a move that is overall favorable - to Black. So the price of keeping sente may be higher than White should have been willing to pay.

Remember that in the opening there are always other big moves to be played. If there weren't, it would no longer be the opening. :blackeye:

By and large, if Black focuses on building his own frameworks, White is going to have to enter sooner or later and fight there. The komi allows White to settle for less from such a fight than if there were no komi but that is the nature of Go. If on the other hand, Black focuses on erasing White's potential rather than building his own, then Black commits to fighting within White's area of influence. It is not impossible to play that way, but to some extent Black is voluntarily giving up the advantage of the first move. At least Black is running the risk of ending in gote(!) and letting White seize the initiative.

Have you watched Bat's lectures on youtube? I watched a bunch of the games and enjoyed them. One thing that struck me about his play compared to mine (yep, I am more like you than I am like him :blackeye:

), he often is content to just continue developing his own framework rather than immediately challenging his opponent. I think this is a good, calm approach to cultivate. If we can't afford to do so, we have to immediately ask where did we go wrong in the moves up until now. Since the game starts out balanced, it should not be urgent that we forcefully interrupt our opponent's early play unless we have already made a mistake somewhere. In that case the question is not what to play next but rather what to fix in the next game. :salute:

oren · Post by **oren** » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:46 am

ez4u wrote:From my copy of GoGoD...
$$Bc Continuations when White Answers the Marked Stone
$$
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . , . . . . . , . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . a . . . . . .
$$| . . O , X O b . i g f e
$$| . . . O O X B . h d c .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$+ - - - - - - - - - - - -

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Continuations when White Answers the Marked Stone $$ $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . , . . . . . , . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . a . . . . . . $$| . . O , X O b . i g f e $$| . . . O O X B . h d c . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$+ - - - - - - - - - - - -[/go]
Code: Select all
Statistics:
261 matches

Wa:    217 (207)
Wb:    33 (21)
Wc:    3 (2)
Wd:    3 (2)
We:    1 (1)
Wf:    1 (1)
Wg:    1 (0)
Wh:    1 (0)
Wi:    1 (1)

B would require a ladder breaker right?

Life In 19x19

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