Kirby's Study Journal
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ez4u
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Those are the stats for White's next play rather than Black's.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
ez4u wrote:Flattery will get you everywhere!
Thanks for this detailed post, ez4u. I must admit that I was PUI ("posting under the influence") last night, but nonetheless, the sentiment I expressed holds.
ez4u wrote:Let's step back to the beginning with our database...
...
In the 182 games where White pulls back at, we see that Black connects at
145 times, plays the hanging connection at "a" 27 times, jumps into the center at "b" (invented by Takemiya of course) 7 times, plays on the right at "c" twice, and plays in the upper left (at "d") a grand total of once.
This is a fascinating analysis, and the argument against "d" is convincing.
Personally, I feel that 437 is a low sample size to get strong meaning from a position, however, given the variance in play (eg. "d" being played once, with being played 145 times), it would seem that even a low sample size is somewhat convincing for the current argument.ez4u wrote:Now repeat after me, "This is natural since Black's potential framework from the upper right wrapping around the lower right to the lower left is bigger than White's framework on the left side (this is important!!!)."
I do not feel that I think of the game in this way. Especially in the opening, I don't try to process the idea of, "Is this framework bigger than the opponent's framework?" Instead, I follow a more greedy approach thinking, "What is the maximum that I can get away with? I want to leave him with as little as possible, and me with as much as possible." Awhile back, someone posted about an AI mancala competition. The winning algorithm tried to win marginally, not by a lot. It always tried to get just a little more than the opponent. The analogy was made that this is true in go, too. And maybe it is.
But for some reason - I really don't know what it is - I am always afraid to play like this. Perhaps this is fundamentally because I am not confident in my ability to measure relative value? For example, I had no idea that black's potential framework was bigger than white's on the left side.
I trust that you are correct, but that's mostly because I have no idea how to know this myself (except that you've just told me!)
ez4u wrote:Currently I think you way over-value sente. Note that in this game, as in nearly every game,,
,
, and
...
This is an interesting thought. Perhaps I do over-value sente. I wonder if it is related to my lack of confidence in measuring relative value of positions.
That is, if I always try to increase what I have and decrease what my opponent has, I never have to try to measure relative value. I can avoid this, and just trust that my efforts to increase what I have and decrease what they have will result in an end score that is in my favor.
ez4u wrote:Have you watched Bat's lectures on youtube? ...
No, I haven't. Perhaps this is something I should do. I've heard of the name before.
---------------------
Summary of Thoughts
Your post had many interesting ideas in it. Perhaps some general principles that stick out to me are the ideas that I:
1.) Over-value sente
2.) Do not have confidence in my ability (or lack thereof) to measure the relative value of territory
I feel that it's possible that these two are related. Maybe because of #2, I hold to #1.
To be honest, I don't know how to fix #2. Perhaps watching this Bat guy's lectures will help. But as it's my allotted time for playing a game coming up, I will try an experiment. I will try to play this upcoming game without trying to take sente as much. In other words, I'll try to force myself to play gote.
This still doesn't help at all with #2, but I feel like experimenting today.
Thank you for your input.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I tried to play gote this game. It didn't work out too well, but maybe that's because of reading more than my playing gote..
I might try it again tomorrow.
All in all, I'm confused about everything.
I might try it again tomorrow.
All in all, I'm confused about everything.
]be immersed
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EdLee
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
EdLee wrote:Kirby, this is interesting; it's like playing bad moves on purpose --Kirby wrote:I'll try to force myself to play gote.
Curious to hear about the results of your experiment. Good luck.
Well, it's possible that I misinterpreted what ez4u was getting at, but my impression is that I value sente too much. I don't want to play gote to play a "bad" move, but maybe if I try to go against my current mindset, I can realize the benefits that I can get by playing gote.
I dunno, maybe I am thinking about this the wrong way. But if I value sente too much, it seems that I should stop trying so hard to play sente.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I lost the last game I tried this with, as you can see, but I'll play another one in a few minutes here, and try it again.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I tried to play more calmly, again. I lost my patience a few times, and at times thought I should have been more aggressive.
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ez4u
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
The adventures of Kirby the Gote Master make fun reading. Thanks!
In the game from post #34, a really interesting fact is that in the position below, after Black captures the two stones on the left side with A11 (move 121), White can reduce Black to one eye at the top with
. If Black answers with 
, 
makes a six-point placement shape. 
If instead Black plays 2 at 3 to prevent that shape, White can cut at 2 with 4 and the marked stones are caught in a shortage of liberties, e.g. Black 5 at "a", White "b" atari, and Black can not connect the stones.
Right at the moment, it looks difficult to contain Black if he plays
and 
due to the bad aji around "c". But as the game went on various choices could have been made differently to build strength in the center with this sequence in mind. Missing the follow up play at "c" in the ko fight may have cost White about 80 points! 
A move I found particularly interesting was the hane at M16 below. I sort of cringed when you wrote, "Hmm, OK. I could keep attacking, but maybe M16 is a "calm" move. I don't usually play calmly." I don't usually play that calmly either but it had a tremendous effect toward the left, which is exactly where White had built his framework previously.
Black continued with a standard "joseki" up to 9. However, what if White had connected at "a" instead of playing 9. I think this would be interesting too.
If Black goes ahead and takes the corner, Black cuts with 3 and 5 and has an excellent result on the top side. The marked stone is just right to support this.
So probably Black has to compromise with below. But White can calmly answer 5 with 6, take the corner with 8, and treat 9 and 10 as miai. If Black plays atari with "a" and White connects with "b", White is building up the framework on the left plus points on the right. If something like the exchange of "c" for "d" follows, White is very happy while Black is not out of the woods yet.
In the game, I thought that below was a bit of the wild and woolly Kirby showing through. In the game, when Black answered at , White felt the need to go back to and got into some difficulty when Black continued with . Playing or "a" from the direction of the framework in the first place might have been better. If White then answers 2 on the right somehow, Black runs on a neutral point (say 1) and White calmly approaches in the lower left, e.g. "b", White is comfortable.
In the game from post #34, a really interesting fact is that in the position below, after Black captures the two stones on the left side with A11 (move 121), White can reduce Black to one eye at the top with
. If Black answers with , makes a six-point placement shape. If instead Black plays 2 at 3 to prevent that shape, White can cut at 2 with 4 and the marked stones are caught in a shortage of liberties, e.g. Black 5 at "a", White "b" atari, and Black can not connect the stones. Right at the moment, it looks difficult to contain Black if he plays
and due to the bad aji around "c". But as the game went on various choices could have been made differently to build strength in the center with this sequence in mind. Missing the follow up play at "c" in the ko fight may have cost White about 80 points! A move I found particularly interesting was the hane at M16 below. I sort of cringed when you wrote, "Hmm, OK. I could keep attacking, but maybe M16 is a "calm" move. I don't usually play calmly." I don't usually play that calmly either but it had a tremendous effect toward the left, which is exactly where White had built his framework previously.
Black continued with a standard "joseki" up to 9. However, what if White had connected at "a" instead of playing 9. I think this would be interesting too.
If Black goes ahead and takes the corner, Black cuts with 3 and 5 and has an excellent result on the top side. The marked stone is just right to support this.
So probably Black has to compromise with
below. But White can calmly answer 5 with 6, take the corner with 8, and treat 9 and 10 as miai. If Black plays atari with "a" and White connects with "b", White is building up the framework on the left plus points on the right. If something like the exchange of "c" for "d" follows, White is very happy while Black is not out of the woods yet. In the game, I thought that
below was a bit of the wild and woolly Kirby showing through. In the game, when Black answered at , White felt the need to go back to and got into some difficulty when Black continued with . Playing or "a" from the direction of the framework in the first place might have been better. If White then answers 2 on the right somehow, Black runs on a neutral point (say 1) and White calmly approaches in the lower left, e.g. "b", White is comfortable.Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
ez4u wrote:The adventures of Kirby the Gote Master make fun reading. Thanks!
Thanks, I'm having fun, too. It's also nice to get feedback. Have you read The Way of the Peaceful Warrior? You remind me of the main character in this book.
ez4u wrote:
Believe it or not, I did think of reducing him to one eye here when I was playing there locally, but perhaps my I lost focus by the time I came to this point in the game. Again, I was concerned about my opponent's stake at the bottom, and forgot about the prospects at the top.
ez4u wrote:
If Black goes ahead and takes the corner, Black cuts with 3 and 5 and has an excellent result on the top side. The marked stone is just right to support this.
I totally agree. I love this alternative to what I played.
ez4u wrote:
In the game, I thought that
Hmm, perhaps, yes. As it turns out, I think I recall thinking that
was not wild, but calm. As the game shows, it was not. I like the idea of calmly jumping at or "a", however, this way of playing doesn't seem natural to me.In general, I do not understand "neutral points" that well. Sure, they are intersections that do not have value or equate to points at the end of the game. But I don't see the board in an "endgame" sense this early (at least not naturally right now).
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I won this game, but I kind of stole it. I think my opponent could have played differently for one move, and maybe would have won.
That said, before that I should have protected my weakness, and maybe it would still be an unknown result.
That said, before that I should have protected my weakness, and maybe it would still be an unknown result.
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skydyr
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Kirby wrote:I won this game, but I kind of stole it. I think my opponent could have played differently for one move, and maybe would have won.
That said, before that I should have protected my weakness, and maybe it would still be an unknown result.
I didn't like H11 either. It seems to drive black into the area where white wants to make points. I don't see a good attacking move to play right away, as black has good center access, an eye on the side, and potential for one around G12 or so. I would probably just play a move on the left side to profit and see if black neglects his group too much later on. If black tries to invade the left side right away, he may cause that group problems once white is strengthened. White's top left group is also fairly thick already, so white might be able to just play a move to strengthen the right side group and let black try to figure out where to go from there.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
So my company gives out these cards - they're called "ORCA" cards. Basically, they let you ride public transportation for free. I've been meaning to save on gas and ride the bus to work, so today I did. I brought along my iPad, on which I have a few PDFs containing various go problems. I've been telling myself I only have time for games, but I couldn't resist ez4u's advice that it's time for me to study more go problems. And what better opportunity than on the way to work?
So equipped with my trusty iPad, I walked to the bus stop today, and rode the bus to work. I solved several go problems, and I felt great at work. It was a great way to make my mind wake up. Correspondingly, when I left to go home, I also rode the bus, so I did the same on the way home. I was mentally tired from work, but I still solved a good number of problems. I'd say that each problem takes me about a minute to solve, unless I remember the shape, in which case, I remember the problem...
And the result? Today, I have a game to show, which I am utterly ashamed to post. Despite having done go problems during my commute to and from work - something I've done for the first time in awhile - Icouldn't didn't(?) read at all today. Certainly, there are other games that I've posted here in which I did not read well. But I am sincerely embarrassed of this one.
But alas, I've decided to play games and post them here when I have. I won't hide this embarrassing game. I only feel sorry to those that feel inclined to observe it, as it is filled with poor play!
But maybe I'll try to commute by bus again tomorrow. Maybe if I keep playing each day, doing go problems here and there, maybe, just maybe, I can get better than the 1d/1k that I've been for years.
Then again, maybe not. But at least I'll have fun trying.
P.S. I did NOT play calmly.
So equipped with my trusty iPad, I walked to the bus stop today, and rode the bus to work. I solved several go problems, and I felt great at work. It was a great way to make my mind wake up. Correspondingly, when I left to go home, I also rode the bus, so I did the same on the way home. I was mentally tired from work, but I still solved a good number of problems. I'd say that each problem takes me about a minute to solve, unless I remember the shape, in which case, I remember the problem...
And the result? Today, I have a game to show, which I am utterly ashamed to post. Despite having done go problems during my commute to and from work - something I've done for the first time in awhile - I
But alas, I've decided to play games and post them here when I have. I won't hide this embarrassing game. I only feel sorry to those that feel inclined to observe it, as it is filled with poor play!
But maybe I'll try to commute by bus again tomorrow. Maybe if I keep playing each day, doing go problems here and there, maybe, just maybe, I can get better than the 1d/1k that I've been for years.
Then again, maybe not. But at least I'll have fun trying.
P.S. I did NOT play calmly.
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billywoods
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Kirby wrote:But maybe I'll try to commute by bus again tomorrow.
I really look forward to train journeys I make; they're excellent opportunities to do things like tsumego (or learning vocabulary, or...) which I often just feel I don't have time to do at home. Train journeys are time I can't spend doing anything else.
Speaking of not having time: this thread looks interesting. I'll try to make time to read it and look at the games...
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oren
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I use the public system to watch a lot of go while commuting. It's fun and the time goes after.
I probably should do tsumego as well, but it's not quite as fun.
I probably should do tsumego as well, but it's not quite as fun.