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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #21 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:26 pm 
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You lost almost a whole move by playing E14 instead of E17!

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Post #22 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:29 pm 
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kirby wrote:
I was told E17 is best here. But I prefer E14. I can't get my head around E17 being better, and I think he'll answer.

Of course he'll answer, that's hardly the point. E14 first is a huge mistake.
Joseki is E17 first, since if you play E17 first your opponent has to avoid dying and play B13, after which you'll still get E14. But much more importantly: you'll get sente. (If you exchange E14 first you'll end in gote, which is a serious problem.)

Theoretically white could also D13 instead of B13 to deny E14 to black, but that leaves worse aji on the side.

Either way, the important thing to note is that you were supposed to get sente here.


edit: guess yoyoma beat me to it :P

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Post #23 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:38 pm 
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I didn't post a detailed explanation because I was curious to see how Kirby would respond.

Kirby, I saw other posts where you ask pros for advice on how to improve. They said play quick games, and you are playing those quick games. But in the comments I see "I've heard this isn't right, but I don't see why". Did you look at a joseki book? Eidogo shows this joseki and explains why you lost a move.

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Post #24 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:17 pm 
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yoyoma wrote:
I didn't post a detailed explanation because I was curious to see how Kirby would respond.

Kirby, I saw other posts where you ask pros for advice on how to improve. They said play quick games, and you are playing those quick games. But in the comments I see "I've heard this isn't right, but I don't see why". Did you look at a joseki book? Eidogo shows this joseki and explains why you lost a move.


Thanks, yoyoma and leichtloeslich. That's awesome. I never knew that it was because of the difference between sente and gote. That's really fascinating, and now I know the reason for that order. I felt that I heard that the other move was right, but I didn't realize this sente/gote fact, so I couldn't make myself play it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #25 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:56 pm 
Oza
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In the game notes at move 26 (W at F5) in Post 20, Kirby wrote:
Hmm, E5 would have been honte for him. I'll try to punish him.

From my copy of GoGoD...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Continuations when White Answers the Marked Stone
$$
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . , . . . . . , . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . a . . . . . .
$$| . . O , X O b . i g f e
$$| . . . O O X B . h d c .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$+ - - - - - - - - - - - -[/go]

Code:
Statistics:
261 matches

Wa:    217 (207)
Wb:    33 (21)
Wc:    3 (2)
Wd:    3 (2)
We:    1 (1)
Wf:    1 (1)
Wg:    1 (0)
Wh:    1 (0)
Wi:    1 (1)

So standing at F5 in the game is the standard play and there is no example from pro play of the "honte" at E5. Punishing this baby may be more difficult than we expect! :blackeye:

"It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so."
- Artemus Ward, 19th century American humorist

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #26 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:02 pm 
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Interesting, ez4u. I thought solidly capturing would be superior, since I could get the forcing move in. I think my forcing move was sloppy, though, don't you?

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Post #27 Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:04 pm 
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By the way, are there examples with white influence along the left side? I feel this is relevant in the current situation.

P.S. You are my role model, ez4u.

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Post #28 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:56 am 
Oza

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My impression was that D6 or D10 were too early, and that black could have kept the game even by just playing calmly on the right or top sides. Just a sanrensei or something like leaves black developing on a much larger scale than white.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #29 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:07 am 
Oza
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Kirby wrote:
By the way, are there examples with white influence along the left side? I feel this is relevant in the current situation.

P.S. You are my role model, ez4u.

Flattery will get you everywhere!

Let's step back to the beginning with our database...

In 437 games from the position below, Black played :b1: 265 times (the low approach at 2 was the choice 112 times). Basically Black does not want to play san-ren-sei and let White blunt the formation with a shimari at 2 or some other play on the bottom. (Note however, that the 16 times in GoGoD that Black went ahead and played 1 at Q10, the results are about even so as always YMMV)

About 70% of the time White goes ahead and attaches underneath at :w2:. In return Black almost always plays the hane at :b3:. This is natural since Black's potential framework from the upper right wrapping around the lower right to the lower left is bigger than White's framework on the left side (this is important!!!).

In the 182 games where White pulls back at :w4:, we see that Black connects at :b5: 145 times, plays the hanging connection at "a" 27 times, jumps into the center at "b" (invented by Takemiya of course) 7 times, plays on the right at "c" twice, and plays in the upper left (at "d") a grand total of once. Now repeat after me, "This is natural since Black's potential framework from the upper right wrapping around the lower right to the lower left is bigger than White's framework on the left side (this is important!!!)."
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , 1 5 a . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Currently I think you way over-value sente. Note that in this game, as in nearly every game, :b1:, :w2:, :b3:, and :w4: below were ALL gote. What were you knitwits tinking? How could you make four gote moves in a row? Weren't you worried about that! :rambo:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Four Gote Moves in a Row!!!!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Actually the database shows that :w4: is pretty much sente. However, in order to ensure that, White has to play a low move relative to the left and entice Black into playing a move that is overall favorable - to Black. So the price of keeping sente may be higher than White should have been willing to pay.

Remember that in the opening there are always other big moves to be played. If there weren't, it would no longer be the opening. :blackeye: By and large, if Black focuses on building his own frameworks, White is going to have to enter sooner or later and fight there. The komi allows White to settle for less from such a fight than if there were no komi but that is the nature of Go. If on the other hand, Black focuses on erasing White's potential rather than building his own, then Black commits to fighting within White's area of influence. It is not impossible to play that way, but to some extent Black is voluntarily giving up the advantage of the first move. At least Black is running the risk of ending in gote(!) and letting White seize the initiative.

Have you watched Bat's lectures on youtube? I watched a bunch of the games and enjoyed them. One thing that struck me about his play compared to mine (yep, I am more like you than I am like him :blackeye: ), he often is content to just continue developing his own framework rather than immediately challenging his opponent. I think this is a good, calm approach to cultivate. If we can't afford to do so, we have to immediately ask where did we go wrong in the moves up until now. Since the game starts out balanced, it should not be urgent that we forcefully interrupt our opponent's early play unless we have already made a mistake somewhere. In that case the question is not what to play next but rather what to fix in the next game. :salute:

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #30 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:46 am 
Oza
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ez4u wrote:
From my copy of GoGoD...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Continuations when White Answers the Marked Stone
$$
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . , . . . . . , . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . a . . . . . .
$$| . . O , X O b . i g f e
$$| . . . O O X B . h d c .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$+ - - - - - - - - - - - -[/go]

Code:
Statistics:
261 matches

Wa:    217 (207)
Wb:    33 (21)
Wc:    3 (2)
Wd:    3 (2)
We:    1 (1)
Wf:    1 (1)
Wg:    1 (0)
Wh:    1 (0)
Wi:    1 (1)



B would require a ladder breaker right?

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #31 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:44 pm 
Oza
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Those are the stats for White's next play rather than Black's.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #32 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:23 pm 
Oza
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I meant your option b, not Black. :)

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Post #33 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:13 pm 
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ez4u wrote:
Flattery will get you everywhere!


Thanks for this detailed post, ez4u. I must admit that I was PUI ("posting under the influence") last night, but nonetheless, the sentiment I expressed holds.

ez4u wrote:
Let's step back to the beginning with our database...
...
In the 182 games where White pulls back at :w4:, we see that Black connects at :b5: 145 times, plays the hanging connection at "a" 27 times, jumps into the center at "b" (invented by Takemiya of course) 7 times, plays on the right at "c" twice, and plays in the upper left (at "d") a grand total of once.


This is a fascinating analysis, and the argument against "d" is convincing. :-) Personally, I feel that 437 is a low sample size to get strong meaning from a position, however, given the variance in play (eg. "d" being played once, with :b5: being played 145 times), it would seem that even a low sample size is somewhat convincing for the current argument.

ez4u wrote:
Now repeat after me, "This is natural since Black's potential framework from the upper right wrapping around the lower right to the lower left is bigger than White's framework on the left side (this is important!!!)."


I do not feel that I think of the game in this way. Especially in the opening, I don't try to process the idea of, "Is this framework bigger than the opponent's framework?" Instead, I follow a more greedy approach thinking, "What is the maximum that I can get away with? I want to leave him with as little as possible, and me with as much as possible." Awhile back, someone posted about an AI mancala competition. The winning algorithm tried to win marginally, not by a lot. It always tried to get just a little more than the opponent. The analogy was made that this is true in go, too. And maybe it is.

But for some reason - I really don't know what it is - I am always afraid to play like this. Perhaps this is fundamentally because I am not confident in my ability to measure relative value? For example, I had no idea that black's potential framework was bigger than white's on the left side.

I trust that you are correct, but that's mostly because I have no idea how to know this myself (except that you've just told me!)

ez4u wrote:
Currently I think you way over-value sente. Note that in this game, as in nearly every game, :b1:, :w2:, :b3:, and :w4: below were ALL gote. What were you knitwits tinking? How could you make four gote moves in a row? Weren't you worried about that! :rambo:
...


This is an interesting thought. Perhaps I do over-value sente. I wonder if it is related to my lack of confidence in measuring relative value of positions.

That is, if I always try to increase what I have and decrease what my opponent has, I never have to try to measure relative value. I can avoid this, and just trust that my efforts to increase what I have and decrease what they have will result in an end score that is in my favor.

ez4u wrote:
Have you watched Bat's lectures on youtube? ...


No, I haven't. Perhaps this is something I should do. I've heard of the name before.

---------------------

Summary of Thoughts
Your post had many interesting ideas in it. Perhaps some general principles that stick out to me are the ideas that I:
1.) Over-value sente
2.) Do not have confidence in my ability (or lack thereof) to measure the relative value of territory

I feel that it's possible that these two are related. Maybe because of #2, I hold to #1.

To be honest, I don't know how to fix #2. Perhaps watching this Bat guy's lectures will help. But as it's my allotted time for playing a game coming up, I will try an experiment. I will try to play this upcoming game without trying to take sente as much. In other words, I'll try to force myself to play gote.

This still doesn't help at all with #2, but I feel like experimenting today.

Thank you for your input.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #34 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:26 pm 
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I tried to play gote this game. It didn't work out too well, but maybe that's because of reading more than my playing gote..
I might try it again tomorrow.

All in all, I'm confused about everything.



(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[1500]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
PW[me(gote version)]PB[adversary]WR[1d]BR[1d]DT[2013-06-15]C[I was white this game.

My strategy: Play gote to try to get some sort of framework. ez4u mentioned I like sente too much. So... Play gote.]RE[B+13.50]
;B[pp]BL[1495.336]
;W[dd]WL[1495.393]
;B[cp]BL[1494.297]
;W[pd]WL[1491.966]
;B[iq]BL[1491.81]C[Normally, almost always, I will play R6.

But ez4u said to play gote... So I guess I play K16 maybe?]
;W[jd]WL[1483.103]
;B[cf]BL[1488.847]C[Normally, I would be concerned about the framework on bottom left... But that would be like I normally play...

So expand my own framework somehow...?

I guess D14 does this, since it works with K16.]
;W[df]WL[1462.048]
;B[dg]BL[1484.329]
;W[ef]WL[1459.47]
;B[ce]BL[1482.057]
;W[cd]WL[1454.472]C[Hmm. I will trust ez4u, but I am scared, now. Black framework seems better than mine, but... I will keep at it.]
;B[cj]BL[1480.147]C[Hmm. I could play Q10 to calmly expand framework... But I guess if I'm in that direction anyway, R6 can't hurt, right?]
;W[qn]WL[1443.425]
;B[nq]BL[1477.177]C[OK... I guess the calm and gote way to play is maybe S4, R3, R9. I'll try that.]
;W[rp]WL[1440.044]
;B[ql]BL[1473.256]C[Hmm, typical move... So I'll just take corner. Be calm. Don't worry about his framework.]
;W[qq]WL[1434.334]
;B[qo]BL[1471.324]
;W[ro]WL[1431.645]
;B[pn]BL[1469.902]C[On a plus side, ladder is OK. I guess framework has some benefits.]
;W[pm]WL[1428.302]
;B[qm]BL[1467.358]
;W[rn]WL[1426.681]
;B[on]BL[1455.179]C[Hmm. I want to invade at E3 before he plays corner. But that would be reducing his framework. I should play my framework in gote, if I can. I guess I will play R10. That helps my framework, and threatens fancy stuff with Q7.]
;W[qj]WL[1414.194]
;B[pl]BL[1450.155]
;W[qg]WL[1411.189]C[Framework.]
;B[nc]BL[1444.144]C[Hmm. He invades. I will try to make him heavy. Seems quite natural. I don't know if it helps the framework, but seems correct.]
;W[oc]WL[1404.169]
;B[lc]BL[1438.85]C[Feels odd to me. I guess I try to make him heavy on this side, too.]
;W[kc]WL[1400.264]
;B[nd]BL[1428.805]C[Hmm, OK. I could keep attacking, but maybe M16 is a "calm" move. I don't usually play calmly.]
;W[ld]WL[1395.187]
;B[pe]BL[1424.779]C[I guess I had this coming.. I will play R15. He probably plays R17 next. I guess I don't attack much, but I'm trying a new style.]
;W[qe]WL[1390.265]
;B[qc]BL[1412.305]
;W[qd]WL[1344.449]C[Calm.]
;B[ob]BL[1409.146]C[Calm.]
;W[pb]WL[1327.825]
;B[pc]BL[1401.039]
;W[qb]WL[1324.536]
;B[od]BL[1398.242]
;W[rc]WL[1323.051]
;B[nf]BL[1366.692]C[Hmm, hard to attack him... But how do I help framework? He has big framework on bottom. Maybe I need to counter that. So I will attack him on bottom side, so to help later game in future.

I have no idea if this makes sense. It's a new strategy.]
;W[nh]WL[1312.674]
;B[pf]BL[1353.699]C[R14 is painful, but think global. Framework.]
;W[lg]WL[1297.947]
;B[qf]BL[1348.96]
;W[rf]WL[1295.162]C[Ouch!]
;B[oh]BL[1346.234]
;W[oi]WL[1291.447]C[Center power.]
;B[rg]BL[1344.24]
;W[re]WL[1285.728]
;B[qh]BL[1341.912]C[Hmm. I guess I take forcing moves to get more center power.]
;W[og]WL[1278.111]
;B[ph]BL[1332.373]
;W[ng]WL[1264.099]
;B[pg]BL[1329.83]
;W[of]WL[1259.565]
;B[oe]BL[1326.863]C[Cut at O11 would hurt. So protect. Calmly.

In gote. Refreshing.]
;W[nj]WL[1245.78]C[Gote kind of feels non-intuitive to me, but it's certainly less stressful.

When I try sente all the time, I'm always worried about the weaknesses I leave behind throughout the whole game.]
;B[lb]BL[1300.339]
;W[ri]WL[1240.497]
;B[kb]BL[1293.19]
;W[jb]WL[1237.308]
;B[ic]BL[1280.485]
;W[jc]WL[1234.761]
;B[pj]BL[1271.489]C[Ug. S11 gone. Oh well. Big picture. Framework. Relax.]
;W[pi]WL[1227.004]
;B[qi]BL[1269.135]
;W[pk]WL[1215.753]
;B[rj]BL[1266.473]
;W[oj]WL[1213.569]
;B[rk]BL[1264.287]
;W[eg]WL[1207.167]C[Framework...]
;B[fd]BL[1244.44]C[OK. Now it's like black is me and I was playing against white. He has framework too, but he wants mine.

So I guess I should now resist, since I have spent so much trying to get "framework".]
;W[de]WL[1201.565]
;B[hf]BL[1242.112]
;W[hh]WL[1189.75]C[Center power. Calm. Framework.]
;B[jf]BL[1236.122]C[OK. Now local battle a bit. Try to fight back a bit.]
;W[ie]WL[1184.556]
;B[ib]BL[1212.136]
;W[ja]WL[1180.842]
;B[he]BL[1201.549]
;W[if]WL[1173.716]
;B[id]BL[1194.422]C[I want to H13, but it doesn't seem that safe.]
;W[ig]WL[1127.685]
;B[ec]BL[1186.174]
;W[gc]WL[1124.533]
;B[gd]BL[1182.464]
;W[hb]WL[1120.851]
;B[ia]BL[1180.155]
;W[ha]WL[1114.36]
;B[hd]BL[1176.235]
;W[fb]WL[1111.772]C[He has lots of liberties, but maybe I can make him spend moves.]
;B[eb]BL[1170.776]
;W[db]WL[1102.565]
;B[dc]BL[1143.534]
;W[cb]WL[1095.828]
;B[cc]BL[1131.376]
;W[bc]WL[1094.084]
;B[ea]BL[1122.678]
;W[bb]WL[1085.036]
;B[lf]BL[1107.651]
;W[mf]WL[1061.284]
;B[le]BL[1104.026]
;W[me]WL[1049.001]
;B[md]BL[1100.339]
;W[kd]WL[1041.614]
;B[ep]BL[1088.877]C[Uh oh. I guess this is what I get for not playing there sooner. But it's OK? I dunno. Maybe I need to invade now. No choice?]
;W[dh]WL[1034.318]
;B[bh]BL[1080.418]
;W[bi]WL[1027.758]
;B[ch]BL[1075.411]
;W[ci]WL[1020.996]
;B[di]BL[1073.415]
;W[cg]WL[1019.194]
;B[bj]BL[1071.248]
;W[ei]WL[1012.192]
;B[ai]BL[1068.402]
;W[gq]WL[999.63]C[OK invade.

(**Right-after playing: Maybe I went in too deep. Is this OK?**)]
;B[eq]BL[1063.384]
;W[hp]WL[996.523]
;B[jo]BL[1059.874]
;W[gn]WL[993.795]
;B[in]BL[1048.819]
;W[en]WL[989.702]C[Hmm, does this work? Can he F5?]
;B[go]BL[1035.487]
;W[ho]WL[987.493]
;B[gp]BL[1031.775]C[I guess I try to live on bottom.]
;W[fq]WL[973.854]
;B[fo]BL[1025.324]
;W[hq]WL[969.384]
;B[hn]BL[1023.385]
;W[ir]WL[963.896]
;B[jq]BL[1020.316]
;W[jr]WL[962.167]
;B[kr]BL[1017.053]
;W[er]WL[948.312]
;B[dr]BL[1013.493]
;W[gr]WL[924.292]
;B[es]BL[994.535]
;W[fs]WL[895.828]
;B[fr]BL[991.902]
;W[kq]WL[893.592]
;B[kp]BL[987.318]
;W[er]WL[890.897]
;B[kg]BL[967.972]
;W[lh]WL[861.67]
;B[fr]BL[962.472]
;W[lq]WL[856.789]
;B[lr]BL[943.414]
;W[er]WL[811.234]
;B[je]BL[938.321]C[Woops! I didn't realize it. Doh!

(**Post-game thinking: This was a lot of points. I should have realized his move here.**)]
;W[ds]WL[775.941]
;B[ka]BL[932.563]C[Does he need to play there again? He can play here any time, and white can't capture him anyway...]
;W[fn]WL[770.805]
;B[cn]BL[921.095]
;W[do]WL[762.009]
;B[bq]BL[912.381]
;W[lp]WL[754.12]
;B[lo]BL[900.602]
;W[jp]WL[749.827]
;B[ip]BL[897.972]
;W[io]WL[747.262]
;B[jp]BL[896.105]
;W[jn]WL[745.636]
;B[ko]BL[894.212]
;W[im]WL[731.098]C[I guess I keep trying for center power? Gotta use "framework"... But man, K17 was a lot of stones :-(]
;B[pr]BL[881.698]
;W[qr]WL[727.279]
;B[kh]BL[849.796]
;W[ki]WL[721.289]
;B[jh]BL[843.458]
;W[ji]WL[718.577]
;B[ih]BL[835.822]
;W[ii]WL[683.821]C[Another three stones go bye-bye, but center seems bigger to me.]
;B[hg]BL[832.215]
;W[nm]WL[678.372]
;B[lm]BL[824.136]C[I guess O7 is too naive...]
;W[hm]WL[670.772]
;B[lk]BL[801.996]
;W[ln]WL[621.36]
;B[mn]BL[777.55]
;W[kn]WL[610.159]
;B[mo]BL[769.13]
;W[mm]WL[608.362]
;B[nl]BL[754.632]C[Hmm. Seems like I still get center to me.]
;W[ml]WL[604.021]
;B[mk]BL[746.378]
;W[nk]WL[597.806]
;B[ol]BL[740.118]
;W[ll]WL[595.244]
;B[hi]BL[705.532]
;W[gh]WL[592.266]
;B[el]BL[687.649]
;W[fk]WL[586.453]
;B[fl]BL[662.093]
;W[gl]WL[561.873]
;B[ek]BL[656.606]
;W[ej]WL[558.92]
;B[fh]BL[639.722]
;W[fg]WL[519.631]
;B[bg]BL[614.151]
;W[dm]WL[504.164]
;B[dg]BL[594.466]
;W[eh]WL[486.519]
;B[cl]BL[574.127]
;W[cm]WL[478.954]
;B[bm]BL[568.382]
;W[bn]WL[476.579]
;B[bo]BL[558.259]
;W[bl]WL[474.267]
;B[an]BL[555.466]
;W[dl]WL[471.487]
;B[ck]BL[552.283]
;W[dk]WL[469.822]C[OK, got some stones.]
;B[be]BL[543.74]
;W[bd]WL[466.809]
;B[gg]BL[525.028]
;W[gi]WL[459.814]C[**The rest of the game was me looking for ways to get points here and there.

I ended up losing by 13.5 points. The K18 stones were worth this much, so I should have definitely saved them. I don't know what would have happened if I had. It would have been a different game.]
;B[pq]BL[512.673]
;W[ps]WL[438.211]
;B[os]BL[510.558]
;W[qs]WL[436.597]
;B[mr]BL[500.103]
;W[oc]WL[406.929]
;B[cr]BL[485.532]
;W[dp]WL[399.946]
;B[dq]BL[473.732]
;W[oa]WL[372.646]
;B[nb]BL[465.928]
;W[ed]WL[335.466]
;B[fc]BL[460.293]
;W[ae]WL[246.069]
;B[ne]BL[455.004]
;W[mg]WL[238.27]
;B[af]BL[447.767]
;W[ad]WL[235.731]
;B[om]BL[443.795]
;W[cg]WL[228.934]
;B[bf]BL[435.181]
;W[dj]WL[214.655]
;B[rm]BL[383.386]
;W[qp]WL[195.425]
;B[po]BL[366.467]
;W[fe]WL[189.017]
;B[nn]BL[362]
;W[kl]WL[184.492]
;B[ok]BL[342.981]
;W[mi]WL[159.812]
;B[pc]BL[326.687]
;W[cs]WL[118.594]
;B[bs]BL[322.11]
;W[es]WL[116.887]
;B[js]BL[316.435]
;W[is]WL[113.598]
;B[ks]BL[314.919]
;W[na]WL[89.474]
;B[ma]BL[312.314]
;W[pa]WL[87.622]
;B[sn]BL[305.001]
;W[so]WL[85.159]
;B[sm]BL[303.312]
;W[sr]WL[52.276]
;B[ci]BL[300.158]
;W[sg]WL[42.647]
;B[sh]BL[291.699]
;W[sf]WL[39.053]
;B[da]BL[287.046]
;W[co]WL[21.357]
;B[ca]BL[281.239]
;W[ba]WL[18.752]
;B[gf]BL[273.964]
;W[dn]WL[13.97]
;B[bn]BL[267.687]
;W[ff]WL[10.446]
;B[dg]BL[259.149]
;W[or]WL[4.205]
;B[ns]BL[255.415]
;W[cg]WL[1.666]
;B[sq]BL[249.121]
;W[rr]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[dg]BL[245.994]
;W[ms]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[nr]BL[240.931]
;W[cg]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[hs]BL[239.532]
;W[hr]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[dg]BL[237.04]
;W[eo]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[fp]BL[233.225]
;W[cg]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[gj]BL[228.539]
;W[hj]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[dg]BL[224.478]
;W[ar]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[br]BL[220.86]
;W[cg]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[fi]BL[217.972]
;W[fj]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[dg]BL[216.285]
;W[ap]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[bp]BL[212.113]
;W[cg]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[qk]BL[209.386]
;W[pj]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[dg]BL[207.087]
;W[si]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[rh]BL[200.316]
;W[cg]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[oc]BL[195.847]
;W[qc]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[dg]BL[193.557]
;W[mb]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[mc]BL[191.09]
;W[cg]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[mj]BL[190.061]
;W[ni]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[dg]BL[188.82]
;W[kf]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ke]BL[180.132]
;W[cg]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[li]BL[178.438]
;W[lj]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[dg]BL[176.364]
;W[]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[cg]BL[173.211]
;W[]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[]BL[173.21]TW[aa][qa][ra][sa][ab][rb][sb][ac][sc][rd][sd][ee][se][fh][mh][fi][hi][li][gj][ij][jj][kj][mj][ek][gk][hk][ik][jk][kk][lk][mk][el][fl][hl][il][jl][em][fm][gm][jm][km][lm][hn][in][sp][rq][sq][fr][gs][hs][rs][ss]TB[fa][ga][ha][ja][la][fb][gb][hb][jb][mb][gc][hc][jc][kc][jd][kd][ld][ie][if][kf][ag][ig][jg][qg][ah][bi][ri][si][aj][sj][ak][bk][sk][al][bl][rl][sl][am][pm][ao][no][oo][ap][lp][mp][np][op][aq][cq][kq][lq][mq][oq][ar][or][as][ls][ms])

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Post #35 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:17 pm 
Honinbo
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Kirby wrote:
I'll try to force myself to play gote.
Kirby, this is interesting; it's like playing bad moves on purpose --
Curious to hear about the results of your experiment. Good luck. :)

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Post #36 Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:04 pm 
Honinbo

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EdLee wrote:
Kirby wrote:
I'll try to force myself to play gote.
Kirby, this is interesting; it's like playing bad moves on purpose --
Curious to hear about the results of your experiment. Good luck. :)


Well, it's possible that I misinterpreted what ez4u was getting at, but my impression is that I value sente too much. I don't want to play gote to play a "bad" move, but maybe if I try to go against my current mindset, I can realize the benefits that I can get by playing gote.

I dunno, maybe I am thinking about this the wrong way. But if I value sente too much, it seems that I should stop trying so hard to play sente. :-)

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Post #37 Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:04 pm 
Honinbo

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I lost the last game I tried this with, as you can see, but I'll play another one in a few minutes here, and try it again.

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Post #38 Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:01 pm 
Honinbo

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I tried to play more calmly, again. I lost my patience a few times, and at times thought I should have been more aggressive.



(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[60]OT[3x10 byo-yomi]
PW[me]PB[adversary]WR[1k]BR[2k]DT[2013-06-16]C[I played white this game. Again, I tried to play without caring about sente as much.]RE[W+Time]
;B[pd]BL[52.062]
;W[dp]WL[51.493]
;B[pp]BL[49.866]
;W[dd]WL[47.201]
;B[fq]BL[47.503]C[Let's just play calm, and not worry about sente. C6.]
;W[cn]WL[41.196]
;B[dr]BL[44.147]C[Almost always I play G3 or H3. But let's play calmly. 3-3 isn't a bad move, is it? It's pretty solid. So let's just play C3.]
;W[cq]WL[36.102]
;B[iq]BL[39.583]C[Ok. My turn. I could try for "Framework" and play C11. But still, I feel the top side is biggest.

So it's not about playing sente to play at the top. I'll play O17.]
;W[nc]WL[33.009]
;B[qf]BL[35.354]C[K16 is an option, but how about nice and easy Q18, try to get some points. ]
;W[pb]WL[30.061]
;B[qc]BL[30.311]
;W[kc]WL[27.951]C[Ok, it was gote. But it's not that bad, right? As white, I should just match what black gets.]
;B[cc]BL[29.157]C[Hmm. Seems a tad preemptive to me. Anyway, I could block at C16, but then he gets sente and plays around C10, and it's good for black.

Blocking on the right side at D17 is OK. L17 is in an OK spot.

Only problem is that L17 and O17 are low... But, I think it's better low than having nothing in the C9 area like on the left.]
;W[dc]WL[20.529]
;B[cd]BL[24.819]
;W[ce]WL[19.026]
;B[be]BL[23.698]
;W[cf]WL[9.155]
;B[bf]BL[20.142]
;W[cg]WL[7.232]
;B[db]BL[18.998]
;W[eb]WL[5.715]
;B[cb]BL[15.842]
;W[fc]WL[3.935]C[Gote. L17 could be higher and I'd feel warmer inside. But this is not all that bad. Let's see what he does.]
;B[jd]BL[15.053]C[Okay, easy reduction...

I will push out. K17 would be too passive, even for this type of strategy.]
;W[kd]WL[10]OW[3]
;B[je]BL[10.378]C[K17 is an option, but his hane at L15 would be good... I'll try to jump ahead at M14.

Usually I would be trying to kill here.

Right now, let's try to make O17 strong. I won't have to worry about it later, and can continue to try to get more points.]
;W[lf]WL[10]OW[2]
;B[jg]BL[5.979]C[L14 peep benefits me, I think, so I'll play it.]
;W[kf]WL[10]OW[2]
;B[jf]BL[2.432]TR[eb][pb][dc][fc][kc][nc][dd][kd][ce][cf][kf][lf][cg][cn][dp][cq]C[All of my groups feel stable. What a weird feeling.]
;W[kh]WL[10]OW[2]
;B[ii]BL[10]OB[3]C[Hmm. Normally, I try to push at L17 and cut or do something... But let's stay with this strategy.

He can cut at L13 if I don't do anything.

So let's calmly protect it. Then see what he does.]
;W[li]WL[10]OW[2]C[Be calm, self.]
;B[qi]BL[10]OB[3]C[Ah yes. R12 was a nice point for me to have. He is protecting, too.

So what good will M14 be for if I can't attack?

Well, maybe I could get center points with it later in the game. Who knows?
But it'd be good if the right side wasn't totally black. I could jump in at R6, then... But he could easily kick and/or pincer me.

Since I want to play on the left without his pincer or kick, then maybe I play O3 first. Then he pincers or kicks, and I doulbe approach at R6.

Maybe that'll work.]
;W[nq]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[oq]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[qn]WL[10]OW[1]C[OK. Now I feel it's unlikely that he pincers or kicks on this side.]
;B[qo]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[pn]WL[10]OW[1]C[Hmm, he kicked... But I have miai with R9 and something in the corner, at least.]
;B[np]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[qk]WL[10]OW[1]C[Ok, got some presence on the right-hand side. Not bad.]
;B[mq]BL[10]OB[3]C[He plays solidly, too...

So let's continue to play calmly. P10.]
;W[oj]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[cj]BL[10]OB[3]C[Ok. No more "big areas" that I can really see on the sides or corners... So he jumped in at C10. He can't make a base on the side.

K15 could be weak, especially since I am not weak in the area. So maybe I should take this chance to be aggressive.

E10 is a cap that can attack at K16 and C10 simultaneously.

Since I'm strong just about everywhere, I don't have any unsettled debt.

Let's go for it.]
;W[ej]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[cl]BL[10]OB[3]C[E8 would continue with this, but then D7 is an easy escape for him.

(**Post-game thinking: I didn't read it well, and it may not be that simple. For example, if I do E8, he D7, then maybe I can F6. It's a fight, and It's not clear for me if it's bad for white.**)]
;W[dm]WL[10]OW[1]C[(**Post-game thinking: Per the last post-game comment, I kind of prefer E8... Maybe.**)]
;B[ek]BL[10]OB[3]C[Calm play would be F9, maybe... But then E10 is just so weak that I can hardly attack K15. I should be more forceful so I can have at least some strength against K15.]
;W[dk]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[dj]BL[10]OB[3]C[Huh. For some reason I felt he would play D8 instead. I can play D8, then at least E10 cuts. Not as strong as I would like, but not bad, either.]
;W[dl]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ei]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[fj]WL[10]OW[1]C[So maybe he'll connect... But it's OK. I don't need to kill him. Just be calm. Get strong. Don't get weak, and trust that I'll find a strategy later.]
;B[fi]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[gj]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[gi]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[hj]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hi]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[ij]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[bh]BL[10]OB[3]C[Hmm. B13, if answered would allow C12, which if answered at B11 would allow for D11 cut.

He could play in alternative ways (eg. C11 after C12), but that doesn't seem great for him.]
;W[bg]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ag]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[ch]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[bi]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[di]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ef]BL[10]OB[3]C[Be calm. I'm pretty strong here, still. Protect the cut.]
;W[ee]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[fe]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[ff]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[eg]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[ge]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[fg]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[gf]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[gg]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[jh]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hf]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[ih]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hg]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[he]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[jj]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[ji]WL[10]OW[1]C[Not bad.]
;B[hc]BL[10]OB[3]C[Hmm. I need to make sure I don't die. Maybe J17 forcing...?]
;W[ic]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[jc]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[id]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ib]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[kb]WL[10]OW[1]C[(**Post-game thinking: Obviously a misread. He can capture J16, now.**)]
;B[gd]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[fd]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ie]BL[10]OB[3]C[Woops!]
;W[fe]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hd]BL[10]OB[3]C[Well... Now I have to live.]
;W[ig]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[if]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[gb]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hb]BL[10]OB[3]
;W[fa]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hh]BL[10]OB[3]C[Not super desirable, but maybe I can make something of this.]
;W[kk]WL[10]OW[1]C[(**Post-game thinking**: Maybe this is too slow. Maybe something like G4 or K4 is better. I have potential with the J10 stones, so it'd be good to make use of it.**)]
;B[jk]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[jl]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ik]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[il]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hk]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[fk]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[fl]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[el]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[gk]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[ek]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hm]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[hl]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[gl]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[gm]WL[10]OW[1]C[(**Post-game thinking: Too aggressive. I was a little "not calm" at this point.**)]
;B[fm]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[gn]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[fn]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[fo]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[go]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[hn]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ho]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[in]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[eo]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[io]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[fp]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[ck]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[bk]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[bl]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ci]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[ak]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[dh]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[qh]WL[10]OW[1]C[OK, try to make use of my influence, now. He doesn't have a super lot of points.]
;B[rh]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[qg]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[rg]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[pi]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[qj]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[pj]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[pf]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[og]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[of]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[rk]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ri]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[ng]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ro]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[re]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[rd]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[qe]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[pe]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[rb]WL[10]OW[1]C[(**Post-game thinking: Maybe just R18 instead, be done with it, and move on.**)]
;B[qb]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[qa]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ob]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[oc]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[pc]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[oa]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[pa]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[bd]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[bc]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[pb]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ra]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[nb]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[rc]BL[10]OB[2]C[tWhy didn't he Q19?]
;W[sa]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[sc]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[sj]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[sb]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[jq]WL[10]OW[1]C[OK. Calmly, keep chugging away.]
;B[kq]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[jr]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[jp]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[ip]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[kr]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[kp]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ir]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[js]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[kj]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[lk]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[lj]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[mj]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[kl]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[ll]WL[10]OW[1]C[Unlike the usual case, I don't have a super lot of aji here. I feel comfortable.]
;B[km]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[ko]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[lm]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[mo]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[mm]BL[10]OB[2]C[Hmm, N4 may be sente, so maybe it's OK.]
;W[nl]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[no]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[nn]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[nm]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[on]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[mn]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[mp]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[jo]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[jn]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[jp]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[lq]WL[10]OW[1]C[Interesting.

(**Post-game thinking: I was considering O2 at this point.**)]
;B[nr]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[lr]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[mi]BL[10]OB[2]C[Doh! Ah well. I guess I do have some aji.]
;W[nj]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[lh]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[kg]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ki]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[hq]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hr]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[gr]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[gq]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[hs]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hp]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[is]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[hq]BL[10]OB[2]C[I can't see a way to kill him, but maybe I can get some forcing in for profit.]
;W[cr]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[fr]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[gs]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[fs]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[ks]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[dq]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[ep]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[eq]BL[10]OB[2]
;W[do]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[cs]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[bs]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ds]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[ar]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[me]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[ne]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[mf]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[nf]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[lg]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[le]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[md]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[mg]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[nd]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[od]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[oe]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[mh]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ol]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[nk]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ml]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[mk]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[li]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[oh]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[pg]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[ph]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[rm]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[rn]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[sn]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[qm]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ni]BL[10]OB[1]C[Hmm, I should live alright.]
;W[sl]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[sm]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[rl]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[so]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[om]WL[10]OW[1]C[The rest of the game is pretty straightforward, but he runs out of time.

I think I might be ahead at that point, though.]
;B[rf]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[mr]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[nq]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[qq]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[rr]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[ns]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ms]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[os]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ps]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[ls]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[pr]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[oo]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[rq]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[pq]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[qr]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[si]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[rj]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[bj]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ai]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[af]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ae]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[ja]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[jb]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[da]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ca]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[ea]WL[10]OW[1]
;B[ia]BL[10]OB[1]
;W[ka]WL[10]OW[1])

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #39 Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:00 am 
Oza
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The adventures of Kirby the Gote Master make fun reading. Thanks!

In the game from post #34, a really interesting fact is that in the position below, after Black captures the two stones on the left side with A11 (move 121), White can reduce Black to one eye at the top with :w1:. If Black answers with :b2:, :w3: makes a six-point placement shape. :o If instead Black plays 2 at 3 to prevent that shape, White can cut at 2 with 4 and the marked stones are caught in a shortage of liberties, e.g. Black 5 at "a", White "b" atari, and Black can not connect the stones. :rambo:

Right at the moment, it looks difficult to contain Black if he plays :b4: and :b6: due to the bad aji around "c". But as the game went on various choices could have been made differently to build strength in the center with this sequence in mind. Missing the follow up play at "c" in the ko fight may have cost White about 80 points! :blackeye:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Only One Eye!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . b B . 3 O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O B O . O X O X X . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O B B B 2 O a X O O X . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O 1 X X X X O O O X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . X O c . X O . X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O 5 . X O X . X O X O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . O . 4 . O . . O . O O X . X . |
$$ | . X X O . . 6 O . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | X . . X O . . . . . . . . . O O X O . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . , . . . O O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A move I found particularly interesting was the hane at M16 below. I sort of cringed when you wrote, "Hmm, OK. I could keep attacking, but maybe M16 is a "calm" move. I don't usually play calmly." I don't usually play that calmly either but it had a tremendous effect toward the left, which is exactly where White had built his framework previously. :tmbup:

Black continued with a standard "joseki" up to 9. However, what if White had connected at "a" instead of playing 9. I think this would be interesting too.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White 1 Impressive!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O 8 4 . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . 1 . X a O 5 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black goes ahead and takes the corner, Black cuts with 3 and 5 and has an excellent result on the top side. The marked stone is just right to support this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White 1 Impressive!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . W . X 1 O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So probably Black has to compromise with :b1: below. But White can calmly answer 5 with 6, take the corner with 8, and treat 9 and 10 as miai. If Black plays atari with "a" and White connects with "b", White is building up the framework on the left plus points on the right. If something like the exchange of "c" for "d" follows, White is very happy while Black is not out of the woods yet.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Compromise, calmly :) 7 at P18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 3 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 5 . 1 4 X O 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O b O 9 X O O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . a . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . d . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the game, I thought that :w1: below was a bit of the wild and woolly Kirby showing through. :rambo: In the game, when Black answered at :b2:, White felt the need to go back to :w3: and got into some difficulty when Black continued with :b4:. Playing :w3: or "a" from the direction of the framework in the first place might have been better. If White then answers 2 on the right somehow, Black runs on a neutral point (say 1) and White calmly approaches in the lower left, e.g. "b", White is comfortable.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc A Momentary Loss of Concentration? :)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . O . X X O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . X . 2 4 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . a 3 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X , b . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


This post by ez4u was liked by 2 people: jts, Kirby
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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #40 Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:15 pm 
Honinbo

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ez4u wrote:
The adventures of Kirby the Gote Master make fun reading. Thanks!


Thanks, I'm having fun, too. It's also nice to get feedback. Have you read The Way of the Peaceful Warrior? You remind me of the main character in this book.

ez4u wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Only One Eye!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . b B . 3 O X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O B O . O X O X X . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O B B B 2 O a X O O X . X . X X O . |
$$ | . . O O 1 X X X X O O O X X X O O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . X O c . X O . X X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O 5 . X O X . X O X O X X O . |
$$ | . . O . O . 4 . O . . O . O O X . X . |
$$ | . X X O . . 6 O . . . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | X . . X O . . . . . . . . . O O X O . |
$$ | . X X , . . . . . , . . . O O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Believe it or not, I did think of reducing him to one eye here when I was playing there locally, but perhaps my I lost focus by the time I came to this point in the game. Again, I was concerned about my opponent's stake at the bottom, and forgot about the prospects at the top.

ez4u wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White 1 Impressive!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O 8 4 . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . 1 . X a O 5 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black goes ahead and takes the corner, Black cuts with 3 and 5 and has an excellent result on the top side. The marked stone is just right to support this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White 1 Impressive!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . W . X 1 O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I totally agree. I love this alternative to what I played.

ez4u wrote:

In the game, I thought that :w1: below was a bit of the wild and woolly Kirby showing through. :rambo:


Hmm, perhaps, yes. As it turns out, I think I recall thinking that :w1: was not wild, but calm. As the game shows, it was not. I like the idea of calmly jumping at :w3: or "a", however, this way of playing doesn't seem natural to me.

In general, I do not understand "neutral points" that well. Sure, they are intersections that do not have value or equate to points at the end of the game. But I don't see the board in an "endgame" sense this early (at least not naturally right now).

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