#233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Hades12
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners -
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$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners - :black: :white:
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$$ | . . 9 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
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$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


So no Magic Sword. Instead, we're going for this joseki that I will follow up with :b1:. Then white will either go and enclose the top or help his stone on the bottom.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't expect white to play this way, but honestly I'm happy about it. This kind of result gives white more territory than I get directly, but it hurts the stone he played at :w6:, and making that stone look questionable is good for me.

Perhaps white has a plan for this. If white plays a different joseki than this I might be in trouble. I don't know other joseki from here very well. Let's see what white does.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
skydyr
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by skydyr »

@hades
What made you choose this pincer? How do you expect black to respond?
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

skydyr wrote:@hades
What made you choose this pincer? How do you expect black to respond?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners -
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$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . 4. . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 9 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


This is what I want to happen but I'm unsure if he knows this joseki. It looks favorable to white as l4 looks good and move 10 is ideally placed. But since he might not know this one I will hane at 3-2.
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

3-2 lower left please.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners -
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$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
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$$ | . . 9 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


i played the tight pincer to keep him cramped. I want to force him to run out while I hopefully profit on both sides.
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Well, not doing that joseki...

I don't know this joseki very well. I know it to this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 2 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . 6 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I once played 'a' in a game and my opponent correct me after the review. The move is supposed to be either :b7: or one below that - the diagonal. I think the attachment to the right of :w2: is also a thing, but I'd prefer not to touch that stone.

After :b7: I am on my own.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


looks like my plan is working.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners -
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Hopefully this joseki. I wonder if I can attach at a first?
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Same thing still. I am looking at the weakness of white's stones on the bottom. Obviously the cut doesn't work directly, but there is aji present. I think a move around E2 could be justified after white defends on the right.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
Hades12
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

I want to say moyoaji made a mistake by not playing b2. however I'm not 100 percent sure with this joseki. I'm more familiar with the diagram I posted earlier of just playing the two space extension of G3 immediately after the attachment of C3. I want to cut the knights move. But i think with the aji of my lower group it isn't smart. Hardest move of the game so far. I think the bump here might prep a cut. I really hate the e2 invasion variation. gahhh. I hope he e3 instead.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Didn't see this move coming at all. I have no idea what I'm supposed to play, so I'm just going to keep myself connected. I am still aiming at weaknesses on the bottom. E2 and J3 both look decent. I kind of like the idea of playing J3 and stealing territory on the bottom in exchange for giving white some outside thickness facing my own.

My group is now quite strong - fully out with plenty of liberties. All it lacks is a firm base. So, I may need to come back and play B2 at some point to give my group that base, but I don't want to play that and force a D2 response. That seems a bit aji-keshi. We'll see how my opponent responds to this move.

Looking at the big picture, now, I seem to be gaining thickness and influence over the territory I desired. Perhaps my high approach was a mistake? Would low truly have been better? Or perhaps two-space low? Or perhaps I should have simply played on the top side like I said I would?

I don't know why I did the things I did. It would have been a different game...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 If I could turn back time... It's one of those Cher moments.
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
Hades12
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by Hades12 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I going for thickness facing my 3-5. Maybe i can get sente to play the upper starpoint or approach the 3-3 to form a big moyo/framework.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . W . . . 9 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . 8 . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O 4 6 O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


leaves weakness but maybe
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moyoaji
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by moyoaji »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


With :w16: my opponent has apparently decided he is going to build the top and left in a big way. I feel like it is time to cash in my aji to get sente.

With :b17: my group is basically already alive. Yes, white can poke, but I'm still able to get out and, in the process of running, I would expose weaknesses in the bottom. :b17: will make white stronger, but I don't think it is going to make him invincible by any stretch of the imagination.

After a response, I want to play something on the left. I think I will approach the corner at the 3-4. I expect to be pincered again and I will come out.
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hades,
Hades12 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 8 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . ,
$$ | . . 3 O . . 4 . . .
$$ | . . 9 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
This is what I want to happen but I'm unsure if he knows this joseki.
By "joseki", which move sequence were you referring to ? And are you sure it is joseki ?
(You know this is closed book, so you already know to wait until after the game to check joseki references.)
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

For beginners.
moyoaji wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . .
$$ | . 7 O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]
With :b17: my group is basically already alive.
Suppose W replies with :w1: connect.
Now, even if B adds one more move, :b2:, locally B is still not alive:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . 3 5 X . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 X 6 . . . . . ,
$$ | 7 . X O . . O . . .
$$ | . X O 1 . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]
VincentCB
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Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12

Post by VincentCB »

I think :b17: is a mistake. Letting white play :w18: below cannot be good. White still has 'a' or 'b' to settle his group on the lower side.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners - :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 2 . . . . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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