CEGO Qualification

[HermanHiddema]

1) Today's situation need not be tomorrow's. E.g., in future, there could be lots of very strong 40+ years old players.

Unlikely, and anyway the rules could be changed if circumstances made it necessary.

2) Rating is no 1:1 mapping for strength in very important tournaments, such as championships or qualifications.

Up to four places are given to top finishers in the European Championship, and two were given based on a qualification tournament among the students in China. So there was plenty of room for people who are "strong in championships or qualifiers".

3) With the given system, we will not find out whether Europeans with non-European pro ranks (Juan, Dinerstein, Taranu etc.) are weaker or stronger than Europeans in the qualification tournament.

4) Excluding the most successful live European tournament player, Dinerstein, 7 times European Champion, makes it especially hard to determine whether he or those that may play in the qualifications are stronger.

Not a goal of the system. There are plenty of other opportunities to meet those players and determine relative strength.

The system is designed to keep the number of games between eligible and non-eiligble players small. Do you recall very frequent complaints about old European Championships - that there would be too few top European - European games? Now it becomes too few top eligible European - top non-eligible European games. Great mistake!

Although some players are not eligible for playing in this specific qualifier event, that does not mean they are ineligible to play in the grand slam tournaments. Do not confuse this specific purpose event with the wider CEGO setup.

[Matti]

1) Today's situation need not be tomorrow's. E.g., in future, there could be lots of very strong 40+ years old players.

I don't buy this argument. If a player is strong enough to qualify when he is over 40 years old, most likely he has been strong enough already when younger than 40.

3) With the given system, we will not find out whether Europeans with non-European pro ranks (Juan, Dinerstein, Taranu etc.) are weaker or stronger than Europeans in the qualification tournament.

4) Excluding the most successful live European tournament player, Dinerstein, 7 times European Champion, makes it especially hard to determine whether he or those that may play in the qualifications are stronger.

I think the aim is to qualify two new players as European professionals, not to compare them to old professionals. I guess CEGO would be disappointed, if we would say that this player with Japanese, Korean and Chinese pro status qualifies as European pro instead of having a new player.

[Matti]

So it is not the strongest Europeans that can become European Professionals, but it is those not being discriminated, e.g., by

- the requirement to be a citizen of an EGF member country (instead of a European country)

A federation is expected to serve its members. Serving non-members can be criticised as wasting the federation's resources except in small scale, when it can be considered advertising membership.

Most European countries have an EGF member organisation, but some don't. Those who don't may found an organisation, which can become EGF member. There is no discrimination there.

[Javaness2]

It is of little use to criticise the selection criteria for the 'professional qualifiers'. Whilst you can argue that it is not perfect, it is hardly idiotic. If you want to discuss something, the nature of the Grand Slam tournament system and or Bonus point tournaments might be more interesting. Clear details around this are not exactly available right now.

It is nice to see that the EGF has now published the selection criteria for sending players to China to study. The next period will begin in September. A year after the contract was signed, details are finally coming together.

[Bantari]

So, once again - what *is* an Euro Pro? Is there any material somewhere?
I have found some french sites, but cannot read french, so no use. I am sure that there is tons of material out there, everything worked out and documents, I just can't find it. In particular, what interests me is the following:

1> what *is* the Euro Pro? What are the benefits of becoming one, other than bragging rights?
2> Is that title for life? You cannot become one if you are over 40, but can you be one if you are over 40?
3> What does the title entails? A stipend from the organization, fee per game, what?
4> Will there be any title tournaments, like for asian pros?
5> Teaching opportunities and preferential treatment was mentioned, any details on that?

And stuff like that. I keep asking, but don't think anybody answered yet. Or have I missed it?
In any case - anybody can answer any of that or point me to a good link in english, polish, or german?

Thanks.

[Javaness2]

Let me try and answer a few of these points, as I understand them.

1> what *is* the Euro Pro? What are the benefits of becoming one, other than bragging rights?
2> Is that title for life? You cannot become one if you are over 40, but can you be one if you are over 40?
3> What does the title entails? A stipend from the organization, fee per game, what?
4> Will there be any title tournaments, like for asian pros?
5> Teaching opportunities and preferential treatment was mentioned, any details on that?

1. They are a certified professional, that's it.
2. It appears to be.
3. For the moment, it is mostly just a title.
4. There will be a grand prix circuit in EGF member countries for which a european pro has automatic entry rights
5. European professionals will be given first preference for selection for international tournaments in which the EGF has the right to nominate the European entry. Euro-pros will be given preferential access to paid teaching opportunities. (Note: It is not clear what those opportunities are, and who will pay the fee. For instance some european go congresses have refused to accept to pay for current professionals, who are european, to teach.)

[tapir]

Open questions for me:

1) what exactly "preferential treatment for international tournaments/teaching opportunities" entails and

2) how the prize fund for the CEGO circuit is intended to be raised in the long run (mainly sponsorship, but not so unlikely to include subsidies by amateur events, following the model of the defunct eurocup?) and

3) what kind of EGF will be the result of the "business oriented operation mode" promised (still an European Go Federation by and for mainly amateur Go in general or a federation sustained by amateurs to the benefit of a few certified professionals) is currently rather nebulous.

[Bantari]

1) what exactly "preferential treatment for international tournaments/teaching opportunities" entails

Exactly!
And - how will it be enforced? Isn't it up to the organizers to invite whom they want? Will pressure be put on organizers to invite this one but not that one? What if a sponsor happens to have his own preference?

Also #1 - will the same consideration be given to pros accredited by other organizations? Some of them are pretty good teachers, would be a pity to undercut them, the average go-student will certainly not benefit from that. Some of those pros did a lot for Go in Europe, and will do even more in the future if treated properly. And some of the strong players might not be very good teachers at all, strength and teaching ability not always go hand-in-hand.

Also #2 - I seem to have a vague recollection that this whole idea has something to do with China. Is that a way to muscle-in on Europe?

[tapir]

Also #2 - I seem to have a vague recollection that this whole idea has something to do with China. Is that a way to muscle-in on Europe?

Not sure what you mean with "muscle-in" (do I hear a negative connotation?), it is as "muscling-in" as the North American system is Korea muscling in. It is more like China and Korea taking up a bigger share in developing international Go these days after more work was done by Japan (and Mr. Ing) over decades. There is a significant subsidy from China now, but this is meant not as money we happily use up, but as an investment in a brighter and somewhat different Go future (not to yield interest, but it is not supposed to be just a money transfer).

Chinese Cultural Centres are supposed to play a major role in Go activities. In fact this has been going on for a while before this scheme, there already were tournaments with high profile visitors from China. Apparently the first grand slam tournament is scheduled for Easter 2015 in Berlin (Chinese Cultural Centre) according to Martin Stiassny (on the german DGoB-forum). There will be the China Cup for the general public at the same date and place as well.

EGF has about no means to enforce anything (apart from participation in international tournaments where EGF is represented as EGF). EGF is a federation of federations, when people did not care about the European Cup anymore tournaments stopped buying into that cup and it completely collapsed. That is why it is so strange, that there is not more consensus building happening now.

[Bantari]

Also #2 - I seem to have a vague recollection that this whole idea has something to do with China. Is that a way to muscle-in on Europe?

Not sure what you mean with "muscle-in" (do I hear a negative connotation?), it is as "muscling-in" as the North American system is Korea muscling in. It is more like China and Korea taking up a bigger share in developing international Go these days after more work was done by Japan (and Mr. Ing) over decades. There is a significant subsidy from China now, but this is meant not as money we happily use up, but as an investment in a brighter and somewhat different Go future (not to yield interest, but it is not supposed to be just a money transfer).

Sorry, did not mean to make any negative impressions, whatever happens I am sure it is for the good of the Go in Europe.

Although, come to think of it, now that you get my mind going in this direction, there might be some other ways to think about it. From the point of view of the Asian superpowers, Europe is not only a Go toddler to be nurtured and guided, but also a big potential market offering tremendous opportunities for profit, expansion, and ultimately control. I can see power-plays taking place to have a bigger share of this market, whoever acts first gains the most. Hehe.

Speaking of pros - there are no Chinese-accredited pros native to Europe, I guess. So what is happening? China is financing an organization to accredit "native" EuroPros, with strong ties to China I assume. These pros will get a preferential treatment (whatever that means) over the pros accredited by Japan and Korea. In the long run, there will be more and more of the EuroPros, and I guess as the system grows, they will get more and more preferential treatment. Just think about it... Because of this, the non-Chinese pros will slowly start getting pushed aside. Or will they?

Might be this is also why the deal is still so sketchy and yet already in place, and why there was so much "secrecy" at the beginning (as I remember) - not to keep it from other EGF members or to prevent any EGF-wide voting, but to keep it secret from J/K.

There is a lot of money that seems to be flowing from China, and knowing what I know of how a communist system operates, I cannot imagine there is no "agenda" behind that. I dunno, you started my mind going in weird directions...

Man, I see conspiracies behind every bush. This is what I get from reading L19 and all this whining about KGS admins, I guess.

Anyways. I am not saying this is bad or sinister or anything like that.
Europe does need a "sponsor" like that, and it just looks like China was the first to step up to the plate and recognize the potential. Good for them and good for Europe. Just wondering where does it all end up, that's all.

Chinese Cultural Centres are supposed to play a major role in Go activities. In fact this has been going on for a while before this scheme, there already were tournaments with high profile visitors from China. Apparently the first grand slam tournament is scheduled for Easter 2015 in Berlin (Chinese Cultural Centre) according to Martin Stiassny (on the german DGoB-forum). There will be the China Cup for the general public at the same date and place as well.

EGF has about no means to enforce anything (apart from participation in international tournaments where EGF is represented as EGF).

Then what does the phrase "preferential treatment" mean? This seems to be the *only* tangible perk I can see a EuroPro getting for his/her troubles, so it must mean something. And there must be some ways to enforce it. Or is it just words, for now, exact meaning to be decided in the future?

EGF is a federation of federations, when people did not care about the European Cup anymore tournaments stopped buying into that cup and it completely collapsed. That is why it is so strange, that there is not more consensus building happening now.

[tapir]

Europe is not only a Go toddler to be nurtured and guided, but also a big potential market offering tremendous opportunities for profit, expansion, and ultimately control.
...
There is a lot of money that seems to be flowing from China, and knowing what I know of how a communist system operates, ...

Honestly, and I hope you are not too much offended, I doubt you know much about communism. You even mistake the world's most capitalist country for a communist one. China does not exactly need Go diplomacy to open western markets. Just go shopping once.

+ You should not blame L19 for the all-american conspiracy thought-style.

Sorry for the OT rant, but it certainly felt necessary.

[Javaness2]

What a diversion. In the beginning, somebody somewhere floated the idea that this was a money laundering operation on the part of CEGO. Well, that was completely ridiculous. The sponsor likes Go, and has a track record of supporting it.

To answer the question about preferences. The EGF is normally asked (this doesn't mean that it always will be asked) to nominate players to go to some international tournaments. Once this system exists, the EGF will first look amongst the EGF certified professionals to give them the nomination. Likewise, if the EGF has the right to select a teacher for an event, they will select from the same group. They will not select from the other pros : fan hui, catalin taranu, diana koszegi, etc

[Uberdude]

Btw, what does CEGO stand for? Are they a private company, governmental organisation or what?

Edit, from http://www.eurogofed.org/egf/CEGO_contract.pdf

the Beijing Zong Yi Yuan Cheng Culture Communication Co. Ltd. (called CEGO in this document).

The CEGO comprises investors who themselves are Go friends. These investors believe on the future development of European Go and are willing to commit themselves to promote Go, a great representative of Chinese traditional culture, in the West,

So it's a bunch of rich Chinese businessmen who have formed a new cultural promotion vehicle?

[Javaness2]

They are a diverse group of people who like Go and want to sponsor it. You could always try asking on the EGF forum for more details, but I guess they won't give you a complete breakdown.

[RobertJasiek]

Herman, which information can we read about "the wider CEGO setup" and related tournaments?

Matti, that usually very strong players become very strong before the age of 40 does not prevent a few to become very strong later.

There would be no discrimination WRT to non-EGF European countries if the status "EGF Professional" was created. However, since the status is called something like "European Professional", it is also creating the related discrimination. Such a title is a lie as long as not every European is eligible.