Centre-based Coordinate System?

General conversations about Go belong here.
User avatar
Bantari
Gosei
Posts: 1639
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:34 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Bantari
Location: Ponte Vedra
Has thanked: 642 times
Been thanked: 490 times

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by Bantari »

Loons wrote:@Bantari
I can't help but point out neither 12 nor 10 would be on a 19x19 board. So nothing but single-digit numbers for coordinates on normal board sizes would be an advantage.

Ah, but you don't have "nothing but single-digit coordinates". In the present system you go from 1..9 and then continue with 10..19. In the new system you would go from 9..0 and then continue with -1...-9. Either way you need a second "sign" - be it a '1' or an '-'. You simply cannot represent 19 lines with only 10 symbols, you need some kind of addition, either more symbols or more (decimal?) places.

As for you pointing out that there would be no 12, point taken.
But (almost) the same could have been said about somebody writing '9' or '3'. There is still less definition to that under new system than under old.

I was gripped by this while writing java code to rotate boards, so. I do think it is a more elegant and symmetrical system, and go is to me a very elegant and symmetrical game. Compared to labelling one of the axis with letters a-t (except for i, most of the time) and the highest magnitude number possible. I would still put coordinates along the edges of the board, were I to make one. Hey, I should.


As I said, for computers you use the systems which are best for what they do, translating from system to system is a trivial matter in this case. I can imagine a single program could use multiple different systems to internalize the data, depending on the task at hand, and then translating from one to the other for the clarity of algorithms.

In your example, rotation of boards, I can see where the digints-only tengen-based system would be more efficient and much easier to code. But then - have a simple (hard-coded even) conversion matrix and you can move back-and-forth between the system in a blink. I would assume that some less trivial tasks, like reading/writing existing sgf files, could be done much easier if you used the existing system. Just to see a different example.
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!
User avatar
Loons
Gosei
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:17 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: wHam!lton, Aotearoa
Has thanked: 253 times
Been thanked: 105 times

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by Loons »

As you point out, it's trivial to convert between systems and wrt code it's syntactical sugar. To me it seems more clear where -5, 7 is than... E17, and its relationship to 5, -7 'P3'. Though it takes a moment to adjust mentally to edge=+/- 9 (not 1, a, 19, and t).
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by topazg »

It's funny, nowhere in this has anyone yet mentioned my irritation that Q is the 17th letter of the alphabet but only the 16th column on the go board. Obviously I know _why_ "i" is absent, but I still get occasionally line-jumped when mentally processing the letter co-ordinates from J onwards :P
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by Uberdude »

@topazg: Do you actually know the ordinals of the letters of the alphabet off the top of your head? I didn't before I played Go (would just count A-B-C-D in my head), now if you ask me what number T is I'd think of a Go board and say 19 oh yeah plus 1. Go makes me think K is 10 :) .
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by topazg »

Uberdude wrote:@topazg: Do you actually know the ordinals of the letters of the alphabet off the top of your head? I didn't before I played Go (would just count A-B-C-D in my head), now if you ask me what number T is I'd think of a Go board and say 19 oh yeah plus 1. Go makes me think K is 10 :) .


Yeah, I have a few benchmarks I work from, like M and N are 13 and 14, R is 18, V is 22, but I messed around with letter cryptography and other things on a simple level as a kid, and they just sort of stuck :P
DrStraw
Oza
Posts: 2180
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:09 am
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 4312
Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
Has thanked: 237 times
Been thanked: 662 times
Contact:

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by DrStraw »

topazg wrote:
Uberdude wrote:@topazg: Do you actually know the ordinals of the letters of the alphabet off the top of your head? I didn't before I played Go (would just count A-B-C-D in my head), now if you ask me what number T is I'd think of a Go board and say 19 oh yeah plus 1. Go makes me think K is 10 :) .


Yeah, I have a few benchmarks I work from, like M and N are 13 and 14, R is 18, V is 22, but I messed around with letter cryptography and other things on a simple level as a kid, and they just sort of stuck :P


Doesn't help people who do not use the English alphabet. Most countries, even if they use a Latin-based alphabet, have different letters.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
tj86430
Gosei
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:42 am
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
GD Posts: 0
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 129 times

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by tj86430 »

DrStraw wrote:
topazg wrote:
Uberdude wrote:@topazg: Do you actually know the ordinals of the letters of the alphabet off the top of your head? I didn't before I played Go (would just count A-B-C-D in my head), now if you ask me what number T is I'd think of a Go board and say 19 oh yeah plus 1. Go makes me think K is 10 :) .


Yeah, I have a few benchmarks I work from, like M and N are 13 and 14, R is 18, V is 22, but I messed around with letter cryptography and other things on a simple level as a kid, and they just sort of stuck :P


Doesn't help people who do not use the English alphabet. Most countries, even if they use a Latin-based alphabet, have different letters.

And many of them, have the "extra" letters at the end of alphabet (e.g. Finnish alphabet is ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZÅÄÖ), so the alphabet used for coordinates is exactly the same. I believe the same is true for Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and German, at least.
Offending ad removed
User avatar
daal
Oza
Posts: 2508
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:30 am
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 1304 times
Been thanked: 1128 times

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by daal »

Loons wrote: To me it seems more clear where -5, 7 is than... E17...


Not to me. E17 looks much more individual. When I look at -5, 7, I don't immediately know which is the vertical coordinate and which the horizontal. This system would leave me regularly confused.
Last edited by daal on Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Patience, grasshopper.
User avatar
Jujube
Lives in gote
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:49 am
Rank: EGF 5k Foxy 2k
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 71 times
Contact:

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by Jujube »

Anyone prefer the numbering used on HNG? star points on 4, 10, 16, read horizontally first, then vertically, from the top left?

I notice that the demo boards usually have Latin numbers across the top and Kanji numbers (ichi, ni, san, ... ) on the left.

I find it quite natural to think of the stars as (4, 4), (10, 4), (16, 4), (4, 10), (10, 10), (16, 10), (4, 16), (10, 16), (16, 16).

I find it easier to count forwards and backwards through numbers instead of starting at 'Q' on the star and thinking "what's two letters before 'Q'", for instance.
12k: 2015.08.11; 11k: 2015.09.13; 10k: 2015.09.27; 9k: 2015.10.10; 8k: 2015.11.08; 7k: 2016.07.10 6k: 2016.07.24 5k: 2018.05.14 4k: 2018.09.03 3k: who knows?
User avatar
RBerenguel
Gosei
Posts: 1585
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:44 am
Rank: KGS 5k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: RBerenguel
Tygem: rberenguel
Wbaduk: JohnKeats
Kaya handle: RBerenguel
Online playing schedule: KGS on Saturday I use to be online, but I can be if needed from 20-23 GMT+1
Location: Barcelona, Spain (GMT+1)
Has thanked: 576 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by RBerenguel »

tj86430 wrote:And many of them, have the "extra" letters at the end of alphabet (e.g. Finnish alphabet is ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZÅÄÖ), so the alphabet used for coordinates is exactly the same. I believe the same is true for Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and German, at least.


Doesn't happen in Spanish or Catalan, I guess neither in French (Catalan and French for Ç, Catalan for Ŀ, Spanish for Ñ and for CH, although I think the latter is no longer a "letter")
Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net
User avatar
RBerenguel
Gosei
Posts: 1585
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:44 am
Rank: KGS 5k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: RBerenguel
Tygem: rberenguel
Wbaduk: JohnKeats
Kaya handle: RBerenguel
Online playing schedule: KGS on Saturday I use to be online, but I can be if needed from 20-23 GMT+1
Location: Barcelona, Spain (GMT+1)
Has thanked: 576 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by RBerenguel »

daal wrote:
Loons wrote: To me it seems more clear where -5, 7 is than... E17...


Not to me. E17 looks much more individual. When I look at -5, 7, I don't immediately know which is the vertical coordinate and which the horizontal. This system would leave me regularly confused.


Standard coordinate rules apply, either (X,Y) or row-column, so, it's essentially the same...

In any case, coordinates are what they are.
Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net
User avatar
daal
Oza
Posts: 2508
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:30 am
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 1304 times
Been thanked: 1128 times

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by daal »

RBerenguel wrote:
daal wrote:
Loons wrote: To me it seems more clear where -5, 7 is than... E17...


Not to me. E17 looks much more individual. When I look at -5, 7, I don't immediately know which is the vertical coordinate and which the horizontal. This system would leave me regularly confused.


Standard coordinate rules apply, either (X,Y) or row-column, so, it's essentially the same...

In any case, coordinates are what they are.


You're missing my point. I, and perhaps others whose last encounter with graphs was 30 yrs ago, don't quickly remember what standard coordinate rules are. that means I have to think about the meaning of -5,7 whereas I don't need to think about the meaning of E17, because the letters and numbers are written (for example on kgs) on the board. If this coordinate system were to be adopted, it would add another layer of thought to what is already a difficult enough process.
Patience, grasshopper.
User avatar
RBerenguel
Gosei
Posts: 1585
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:44 am
Rank: KGS 5k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: RBerenguel
Tygem: rberenguel
Wbaduk: JohnKeats
Kaya handle: RBerenguel
Online playing schedule: KGS on Saturday I use to be online, but I can be if needed from 20-23 GMT+1
Location: Barcelona, Spain (GMT+1)
Has thanked: 576 times
Been thanked: 298 times
Contact:

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by RBerenguel »

I'd assume if this coordinates were used, they would also be printed/shown on boards. So, no need to add an extra layer of thinking.
Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net
User avatar
daal
Oza
Posts: 2508
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:30 am
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 1304 times
Been thanked: 1128 times

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by daal »

RBerenguel wrote:I'd assume if this coordinates were used, they would also be printed/shown on boards. So, no need to add an extra layer of thinking.


Sorry about nitpicking, but then there would be four -5s and four 7s on the board and I think that I would still regularly not immediately know which coordinate was meant.
Patience, grasshopper.
Elom
Lives in sente
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:18 am
Rank: OGS 9kyu
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: WindnWater, Elom
Location: UK
Has thanked: 568 times
Been thanked: 84 times

Re: Centre-based Coordinate System?

Post by Elom »

Interesting, unless I'm mistaken, in Japan (and HnG) the origin is in the upper left corner, and Kanji are used top to bottom while arabic numerals are used left to right. You can see it on An Younggil 9p's GGG photo.

Shown up to ten:

---01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19










十一
十二
十三
十四
十五
十六
十八
十九

Also, I think that because westerners are used to using the Latin alphabet coordinates it would of course seem that something like, say, "Q4" is more recognisable than "6,-6", but ask a Japanese guy who can't speak basic English (not that many exist) and primarily used the above system for 20 years which system is easier to use, "Q4" or "6,-6" and I think you'll get a quick answer.

I think that there are "bespoke" situations if I may put it that way, where the tengen based coordinates are clearly superior, or maybe it's just your preference (for example I making a bot and want to install a pro game database like GoGod to give it some killer opening moves, I'd use this system. Maybe I'd do that in the Future.)

Why don't you try the above system? You might find it about as easy to use as numbers at first, but after a short while become quite used to it.

Overall,
1: This system is useful an elegant in certain situations
2: We make a big deal about coordinates, too much computer go

PS: Don't say "negative six, six" but "dash--six, six".
On Go proverbs:
"A fine Gotation is a diamond in the hand of a dan of wit and a pebble in the hand of a kyu" —Joseph Raux misquoted.
Post Reply