So me and Ootakamoku reviewed a game of some 5k in the KGS teaching ladder, when we had a surprisingly strong disagreement about the value of some stones.
Here's the position:
Black's last move is highlighted. I told the 5k that running out with those stones was a bad idea (tm). I said the g8-group is useless, because the white e9-group can easily jump to c and is fine.
However, Ootakamoku said it is indeed a good idea to run g8 out, because of the aji at the bottom caused by the triangled black stones (something like a or b). So basically they're a bunch of throw-away stones that we want to sacrifice to gain something nice somewhere else (probably at the bottom).
What do you guys think? Useful light aji-activators or potentially heavy attacking target?
To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
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leichtloeslich
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Re: To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
Those two stones don't really have a huge amount of aji as the corner is alive as it stands. So I agree with you. It may be possible to pull them out later, but not now. I'd be consider playing someone where the region of L6, but would have too look more carefully before deciding exactly where.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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emerus
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Re: To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
It looks very heavy. It would help if he'd show a clear way to use the aji and you would show why you thought the stones were so heavy. I'm sure you hashed though it in the review. (and lost your poor 5kyu in the process 
I strongly agree with you though. There doesn't seem to be any clear value in that aji that would offset the "debt" of creating a heavy group.
I strongly agree with you though. There doesn't seem to be any clear value in that aji that would offset the "debt" of creating a heavy group.
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Bill Spight
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Re: To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
The two Black stones are very weak. The best argument I can think of for running with those stones is that if Black simply gives them up it will be difficult to win the game.
But Black still has chances, particularly at the SDK level.
What is the theoretically best play? Maybe O-07, on the frontier of frameworks. But maybe that's not enterprising enough. Maybe M-07? M-09?
But Black still has chances, particularly at the SDK level.
What is the theoretically best play? Maybe O-07, on the frontier of frameworks. But maybe that's not enterprising enough. Maybe M-07? M-09?
The Adkins Principle:
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Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Solomon
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Re: To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
I think because White is stronger in the area than Black, the timing is not right; like trying to peel a banana that is too green. But the banana is small and the aji is not as strong as it seems, so I would hold off on the banana and play elsewhere.
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Charles Matthews
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Re: To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
Well, I think the play chosen isn't the good way to run out. One line higher is more tasteful.
If now White expects to get a good result from
, 
is very useful to make the marked black stones look far more dangerous.
So we expect White, if anything, to reinforce the strong side with this. But then is quite practical.
If now White expects to get a good result from
, is very useful to make the marked black stones look far more dangerous.So we expect White, if anything, to reinforce the strong side with this
. But then is quite practical.-
shapenaji
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Re: To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
2 isn't sente though, I think I'd be happier as black just following Araban's line and coming back around this area when there's a clearer attack on white's three stones.Charles Matthews wrote:
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Charles Matthews
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Re: To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
In terms of middlegame and timing:shapenaji wrote:2 isn't sente though, I think I'd be happier as black just following Araban's line and coming back around this area when there's a clearer attack on white's three stones.
After
, White cannot hold the upper group together. So would treat the marked stones lightly, I think. This means that Black should be concerned not just to take a small profit here, but to fight on a bigger scale.This could happen, and White has to choose now whether to keep pushing with
or not. My feeling is that getting the exchange of Black a, White b in first matters. The peep Black c looks useful very soon.In any case Black's plan should be about preventing White swallowing up the centre in this game. The formation on the right side is not very well coordinated to do that.
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shapenaji
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Re: To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
Hmm? White can hold the group together...
"a" does not successfully cut
"a" does not successfully cut
Last edited by shapenaji on Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Charles Matthews
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Re: To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
Ah, good point, hadn't considered that. Black gets a number of peeps to play with, if White doesn't want the lite option.shapenaji wrote:Hmm? White can hold the group together... "a" does not successfully cut
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drmwc
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Re: To be heavy or not to be (heavy), that is the question
I also agree with the tenuki idea. I wouldn't actually think very hard about my next move, and play here:
Black has a lot of aji at the bottom. The best way to eploit it is not yet clear (given the corner group is alive).
The 3-3 invasion is huge. For example:
Black ends in sente and can now think of the best ways to reduce the lower side. I thikn black leads.
Alternatively:
This also seems good for black. White's "thickness" is unikley to be effective here.
Black has a lot of aji at the bottom. The best way to eploit it is not yet clear (given the corner group is alive).
The 3-3 invasion is huge. For example:
Black ends in sente and can now think of the best ways to reduce the lower side. I thikn black leads.
Alternatively:
This also seems good for black. White's "thickness" is unikley to be effective here.