Handling approach on both side

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:35 pm

Hi,

I'm really not confortable when there is an approach on both side.
Let's say for example :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 7 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . b 8 . a d . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

What to do if white play

here instead of 'a' or 'b' ?

- Doing a pincer at 'c' doesn't appeal me much because the top/left corner is white (:w2:)
but maybe that's the right move ?

- or should I play near 'd' ? looks difficult

doesn't look that weak to me

Any help very welcome...

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:17 pm

Hi oca,

Locally:

If

hane and

connects, you're almost alive --
( W is not settled on either side. )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 4 . X . . . . . . $$ | . 5 X , . O . . . , $$ | . . X O . . . . . . $$ | . 1 O 2 . . . . . . $$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . $$ +--------------------[/go]

If

hane and

tenuki, you capture at least

with

--
( if

connects at (a), you kill all with

(b) )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B :w2: tenuki $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . X , . O . . . , $$ | . . X O b . . . . . $$ | . 1 W a 3 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ +--------------------[/go]

Re: Boidhre's search,

kosumi is a big shared vital point:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . X , . O . . . , $$ | . . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ +--------------------[/go]

oca wrote:I'm really not comfortable when there is an approach on both sides.

One solution: study it, play it (die horribly many times), review it -- rinse and repeat.

Realize that if your opponent double approaches and he has two unsettled groups,
then you only need to take care of one group, whereas he has to take care of two.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:26 pm

From a quick pattern search:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . a . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 . b . . . . $$ | . . 9 , . 6 . . . , $$ | . . 7 4 c . . . . . $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ +--------------------[/go]

The most common pro responses for black, a 15 games, b 8 games, c 6 games. Not a big sample. (Naive weak reading) a seems to say you're happy to fight on either side, b seems to say white has a presence on the bottom and you want to get into the centre, c says you want to start a fight on the bottom. My interpretation is undoubtedly wrong but the moves might be of interest to you.

Unusedname · Post by **Unusedname** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:48 pm

I remember having that discomfort, but it's hard to learn without trying and failing.

Your reason for not liking the counterpincer at c is good.
But consider this other reason.

Can you imagine what white will play after c?

So knowing this you can start to consider Boidhre's diagram.

At least that's what I think I know.

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:03 pm

Thank you all for your replies, my problem with 'a' is that I don't want white to have both side and me just having a kind of snake spliting two alive groups...
So my problem is maybe that I don't make sever enough moves. I Will try to play more that kind of move, and see what happend... That's the best way to learn...

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:21 pm

oca wrote:I don't want white to have both side and me just having a kind of snake spliting two alive groups...

Hi oca,

Locally, you have spent 4 moves on 1 group; W has also spent 4 moves, but split between 2 groups.
Neither of W's groups is settled.
To begin to understand the meaning of

kosumi takes a lot of study and experience.
And many horrible deaths, that goes without saying.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . X , . O . . . , $$ | . . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ +--------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:26 pm

There are actually quite a few reasonable local choices (of course global position can affect how good or bad they are), but I would recommend coming out with the kosumi for your level as it is simple and clear. It keeps your group safe and not surrounded, and white can only help one or other of his side groups so you can hurt the other one next. This is a very common idea in double approach situations, come out and you make miai to either side. Of course what follow-up you then do on the sides can be tricky, and you do have to be wary of playing softly and not severely enough and getting a bit of a duff snake not doing much through the middle, but if you aren't surrounded at least you aren't going to die.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:06 pm

oca wrote:Thank you all for your replies, my problem with 'a' is that I don't want white to have both side and me just having a kind of snake spliting two alive groups...

Consider the difference to this diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . X , . O . . . , $$ | . . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . O . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ +--------------------[/go]

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:30 am

Boidhre wrote:
oca wrote:Thank you all for your replies, my problem with 'a' is that I don't want white to have both side and me just having a kind of snake spliting two alive groups...
Consider the difference to this diagram:

$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . O . . . ,
$$ | . . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +--------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . X , . O . . . , $$ | . . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . O . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ +--------------------[/go]

Sure this is really different, and in the same time only one more stone... well but it will be black's turn now and that also change things a bit... If that was white turn, that would be more difficult...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . Q . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . X , . O . . . , $$ | . . X O . . . . . . $$ | . . O . 2 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ +--------------------[/go]

oca · Post by **oca** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:41 am

Here is another position that occured in a 6 stones handicap I played last week in my go club (no sgf...) :
I failed to handle that situation and my top/right group died...
The annoying move was

but I think I did the mistake later...

When I just look at the position now, that looks easy for black, but in the game, white surrounded me... and I noticed too late... not that much too late, maybe only one move, but that still make a group live or die...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . 4 . 3 . 5 6 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 8 X a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I played

at 'a' which I think is correct and then I don't exactly remember what I did...

something like that I think, but I'm not sure this was the exact

. I remember I played

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . 3 . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 X X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:19 am

oca wrote:Sure this is really different, and in the same time only one more stone

Hi oca, W has two more local stones, one for each of his two groups.
( W 6 local stones vs. B 4 local stones; W has 2 more. )
That's one thing Boidhre's diagram illustrates:
W needs two more moves to settle both his groups.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:26 am

oca wrote:The annoying move was

Hi oca,

is a not annoying at all.
It's a big thank-you move.
You are happy to connect with

.
W gets a broken shape.

is a bad move.
If your UR corner died, it's your mistakes later, not

.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:33 am

oca wrote:
$$Bm10
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 3 . . X . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 X X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm10 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . 3 . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 2 X X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Hi oca,

For example, instead of "running away" with

,
did you consider the hane

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If W plays like this, he is helping you so much on the right side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation A $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , 5 4 . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 3 . ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]

If W makes the empty triangle, then you can consider the 2-space jump & pincer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Variation B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . 3 . . X . O . O X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . 2 O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The hane

should be a first feeling:

You block W, making it harder to get out;
You are ahead of W;
You are on the outside (control of the center), useful;
W is on the inside (neutral points, not very useful).

If you read that

hane doesn't work, then you consider other options.
Your

feels like "running away" from a fight,
like taking a holiday when you're in the middle of a battle.
The current fight is upper right -- urgent.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:12 am

oca wrote:
$$W
$$ +-------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . 4 . 3 . 5 6 . . |
$$ , . . . . 8 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ . . 4 . 3 . 5 6 . . | $$ , . . . . 8 X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Hi oca,

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:14 am

Some ideas about the 6 stone position.

Life In 19x19

Handling approach on both side

Handling approach on both side

Re: Handling approach on both side

Re: Handling approach on both side

Re: Handling approach on both side

Re: Handling approach on both side

Re: Handling approach on both side

Re: Handling approach on both side

Re: Handling approach on both side

Re: Handling approach on both side