Anyone else oppose handicaps?

[Boidhre]

The comparison with chess is not valid for me but I'm not an expert on Chess. I've always felt that removing a piece changes the game in an ugly way. There's something amiss that can't have been removed in a natural way. An extra stone in Go doesn't appear to be wrong in the same ugly way.

A matter of taste, I guess.

The constant comparison I've seen between chess and go is that there is an advantage in go in that you can put down 2 or 3 handicap stones and still play a game of go, whereas if someone gives odds in chess it's not really chess anymore.

[Splatted]

I think not everyone means the same thing when they say there is no fuseki in handicap go and the differences often get exaggerated. If you study fuseki simply as set patterns to be memorised then of course they don't apply anymore, but all of the underlying principles do apply to low/mid handicap games and imho can sometimes be a lot clearer. The opening is shorter but that means players get to see how just a few early decisions shape the mid game instead of trying to decipher repurcussions from the mess of conflicting ideas that is a kyu fuseki.

[Joelnelsonb]

Also, I feel like you have to achieve a certain level of proficiency before handicaps matter anyways. Simply because if you can't hang with the stronger players fighting style, he'll just out play you. If I played a game against a 10 kyu with four stones (which is apparently a huge handicap), I feel like I would still get beat. I may be in the game for longer than I would've lasted otherwise, but with a superior understanding, particularly in contact fighting, the stronger player will eventually catch up by killing a group or whatever. It's kinda like, if you're racing someone in a marathon, getting to start out a mile ahead should be a significant advantage. However, if you're 100 pounds over weight and you're racing a real athlete, you can start 20 miles ahead and still lose. In other words, you have to be able to hold your own before an advantage is actually, well, an advantage.

[lemonpie]

The comparison with chess is not valid for me but I'm not an expert on Chess. I've always felt that removing a piece changes the game in an ugly way. There's something amiss that can't have been removed in a natural way. An extra stone in Go doesn't appear to be wrong in the same ugly way.

A matter of taste, I guess.

I played a lot of handicap chess, and I don't think it changes anything. Everyone I play for the first time gets to pick between a Horse or a Bishop off the board, and they always accept after I tell them it still isn't enough to make it fair.

Sometimes I play the computer on its best level and take away a piece or two, and it's quite fun.

[lemonpie]

Here's a Chinese chess puzzle that is really fun to try and solve:

Only 6 pieces present out of 36.

[Amelia]

Also, I feel like you have to achieve a certain level of proficiency before handicaps matter anyways. Simply because if you can't hang with the stronger players fighting style, he'll just out play you. If I played a game against a 10 kyu with four stones (which is apparently a huge handicap), I feel like I would still get beat.

This is an illusion. A 10k is not far from a 14k in strength, at all.
In terms of tactics they are ahead, sure, and it's well known that it's better for white to complicate matters so as to take advantage of its higher reading ability (This is true for any rank!). But overall they are not so much stronger than you.

A few points:
- It's really good to have some regulars to play with and simply work out how much handicap you need against *them* instead of worrying about rank. If 4 stones isn't enough because your groups die too much, take 5. 5 not enough? take 6. Two wins, remove a stone, two losses, add one. You'll find your comfort zone for playing those people soon enough, and then work your way up.
- At first focus on learning to play solidly. e.g. try to make groups that won't die: keep yourself connected, make a base, try to not leave cutting points, try to make eyeshape. Every time you get cut off when you were trying to keep connected, or otherwise got pushed around, try to get a review for that part of the game, either here or with other stronger players. You'll learn a lot about making good shape. This will translate into strength in even games as well.
- Don't run into every fight white tries to start. You really don't have to. You can afford to defend more than white does. If you don't know how to defend in a specific position, ask afterwards.
- Don't overestimate the higher ranked players. You may think they know what they're doing but they're only playing slightly less bad than you. Just because they're invading doesn't mean an invasion is a good idea. Just because they're attacking your group doesn't mean they can kill it, etc.
- Losing by a high margin means a big difference in points, not necessarily a big difference in strength. If the game is completely one sided, the handicap was not enough. If there are 1-2 losing moves then you're really not that far from beating this person if you work on your biggest weaknesses. Even if the game was lost by 30 points.

[Joelnelsonb]

This is an illusion. A 10k is not far from a 14k in strength, at all.
In terms of tactics they are ahead, sure, and it's well known that it's better for white to complicate matters so as to take advantage of its higher reading ability (This is true for any rank!). But overall they are not so much stronger than you...

Good thoughts, very encouraging.

[Elom]

Haha, my earlier post may have silently implied that one should "oppose" handicap stones.

Maybe to try to sum it up:

First of all, the handicapping system is great. The wording of this thread may not reflect the actual meaning the writer intended to convey.

Secondly, in simple terms, and especially if there is a considerable gap in ability, you are basically being done a favour more than the stronger player (put softly-- actually, you may hurt the stronger players go over time just from frequently playing weaker opponents (handicaps can supposedly make it worse)).

So you should basically put yourself in the stronger players position. What I meant earlier was that if a player with a lower skill level came up to me and asked to play an even or no-komi game, AND (this is an important and) sincerely wants to not out of any egotistical desires, but purely because she or he wants to feel the "full force" of my Go (if it's not an insult to go players around the world to say my Go has any kind of force ), or to train their even game fuseki, or any other innocent reason, it would be hard for me to continually refuse (especially if that person has been considerate before, for example, taking hanicap stones for games previously without kicking up a fuss).