What makes some moyos better than others?

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:45 pm

It seems as though whenver my opponents get a moyo and I try to do anything about it, I wind up with a weak group. My opponents, however, are able to invade my moyos willy-nilly and get good positions out of it.

I suppose I could also have titled this post, "Make territory while attacking?" I certainly attacked, and what did I get out if it? I was very surprised that I had lost by almost 50 points.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:14 pm

Hi Fedya,

If this pincer was one space closer, at R8, and :w10:

still attaches at 3-3 (R3),
there's a joseki starting with :b11:

R4 hane and W cross-cuts -- good to study.

:b17:

M5 feels more like the spirit than the game move, yes.

:b23:

Why is this not the tiger's mouth at o3 so you're all connected ?

:b27:

You've wasted one move here: :b23:

and

are redundant.

:b29:

Instead of pushing W out and helping W, did you also consider the peep at M6 to make W heavy first ( then attack ) ?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:21 pm

You came out OK in the early fighting. But you failed to keep up the pressure, not once but twice. You made a greedy invasion that left you with a vulnerable group and let your opponent profit from attacking it. This invasion allowed White to turn the tables. Also, you often failed to attack by keeping in front of the group you were attacking.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:30 pm

39: The proverb make territory while attacking isn't referring to capturing a few stones. It refers to building your own area while putting pressure on a weak group. I think this move might be fine, but it doesn't fit the proverb.

Overall, I feel like you're attacking a bit bluntly, and always playing directly next to your opponent's stones. Here are some tactical questions.

74: I think you can play M6. After he pushes, his group is still weak.

79: You're cutting him off from a single stone inside your area of influence. You should be trying to drive him into your stones to kill! I think if you play M9, his group dies.

85: I don't like this move. It's destined to end up weak. Maybe M10? It's a bit hard to find an attack that'll profit at this point.

89: Avoid pushes and cuts like this.

Timza · Post by **Timza** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:36 pm

At the end of the game, what is the stone at R 14 with the dot on it called? A dead stone? Is that where if you were playing on a real board you would remove those and they would count as both one captured and one territory? My math works out right when each stone with a dot is counted as two. Since you both passed, do you just assume that these are dead because they are in a group's territory when adding up the score, or at your level do you know they are actually dead by looking at them?

In general, do you avoid going after dead stones because by going after dead stones you are losing a point for every stone you put down? And losing a point for every one you capture?

What is the stone at S 15 that is inside the territory but not necessary to define the group called? It is actually taking away one point by sitting in the territory.

It is fascinating that white took only one stone.

Thanks for posting.

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:40 pm

Timza wrote:At the end of the game, what is the stone at R 14 with the dot on it called? A dead stone? Is that where if you were playing on a real board you would remove those and they would count as both one captured and one territory? My math works out right when each stone with a dot is counted as two. Since you both passed, do you just assume that these are dead because they are in a group's territory when adding up the score, or at your level do you know they are actually dead by looking at them?

In general, do you avoid going after dead stones because by going after dead stones you are losing a point for every stone you put down? And losing a point for every one you capture?

What is the stone at S 15 that is inside the territory but not necessary to define the group called? It is actually taking away one point by sitting in the territory.

It is fascinating that white took only one stone.

Thanks for posting.

Yes the stone at R14 is dead. The usual way to count over a real board is to place dead white stones in white's territory, since +1 point from capture is the same as -1 point to white's territory.

In this case both players passed because they both agreed that the white stone was dead. The stronger you get the better you get at knowing when stones are dead, but it's never perfect. When in doubt, play it out.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:09 pm

Timza wrote:In general, do you avoid going after dead stones because by going after dead stones...

Hi Tim, we avoid doing things that are bad, and try to do things that are good.

If 'going after dead stones' is bad on a particular board, we don't do it.
There are situations where we are forced to actually remove the dead stones off the board -- this happens, and for those situations, cannot be helped.

There are also other situations where actually removing certain dead stones off the board is good for you -- then we do it, too.

So, it depends.

Another way to pose the question: why would you want to go after dead stones (unless you have no choice, or unless it's good for you

) ?

Timza · Post by **Timza** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:19 pm

Excellent. Thank you.

I played through it a few times, and it feels like black keeps attacking, while white occasionally pops a stone out in an empty area of the board. It feels like black created its groups by lots of next to placements. And white created its groups by playing with lots of gaps and then later filling in. It looks like black liked attacking and making lines of stones, and white liked placing in corners and sides and two point gaps. Is that true? Is corners and sides and two points good strategy?

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:36 pm

Timza wrote:Is that true?

Hi Tim, may I ask how long have you played Go, and how many total games have you finished ?
If you have much fewer than 100, I recommend you finish 100 games as soon as you can afford to -- that's a first step.

Timza · Post by **Timza** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:49 am

Beginner. Reading. Playing. Here.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:57 am

Answering the thread subject "What makes some moyos better than others?":

Moyos have current properties in their current positions and are affected by how well they are used. Both are relevant, and so one should not only view moyos as static objects.

Current properties of a moyo include:
- current territory
- maximal territory if the whole moyo becomes territory
- degrees of connection and life of the moyo defender's and attacker's (real or virtual) stones in or around the moyo
- influence of the moyo's stones on other parts of the board (this includes fighting potential, territory potential and the attacker's reduction potential)
- how well does the moyo fit in the global positional content

The stones of a moyo can be used like every influence stones or thickness can be used. E.g., to make (more) territory in the moyo, to make territory elsewhere, to attack, to defend, to reduce elsewhere, to exchange etc.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:27 am

Other people have commented about the slow play around moves 23-29, but I want to focus on move 31. What happens if you ignore black and play a big move like k16? Don't believe your opponent's moves so much, a lot of them are rubbish (30 looks like minus one point in gote to me).

Charles Matthews · Post by **Charles Matthews** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:28 am

Fedya wrote: I was very surprised that I had lost by almost 50 points.

Mmm, the way to improve, IMO, is to get one thing out of every game you lose.

Here, if you didn't see the issue at :b73:

- you should have played one line higher.

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:26 pm

Thank you all for your replies. I'll try to respond to them in order:

Ed Lee: I didn't play the tiger's mouth at :b23:

because I distinctly recall having another game reviewed where I did play the tiger's mouth and was told I should connect directly. Obviously I don't know when it's right to play the tiger's mouth, and when it's right to connect directly.

And for :b29:

no I didn't consider M6. Is that one of those inducing moves Ishida talks about in Attack and Defense? The chapter on inducing moves is the one that went way over my head.

Bill Spight: I'm afraid I don't see why Black should just ignore :w26:

. It doesn't look to me as though Black gets much of a base for his group.

Hyperpape: The point of :b39:

was, I thought, really to try to make territory, especially over on the left side, while attacking. If I could kill all those stones, great, but stil I thought I'd be making territory while White was having to save his group. (And I actually thought I had been doing a good job of doing just that.)

Uberdude: with :w30:

I was afraid of White putting pressure on the stone at F3. I figured that if I lost that White would get a lot of territory, and my group wouldn't be very big at all.

Charles Matthews: What issue at :b73:

?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:59 pm

Fedya wrote:Bill Spight: I'm afraid I don't see why Black should just ignore . It doesn't look to me as though Black gets much of a base for his group.

Here are a couple of variations if Black plays elsewhere.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 Variation 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X O O . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X 5 3 X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O O . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ignores the threat in the bottom. If :w2:

cuts, Black sacrifices the :bc:

stone. Where is Black's weakness?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm27 Variation 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X X O O 6 . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . X 3 4 X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This variation gives White some chances, but where is the problem for Black?

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What makes some moyos better than others?

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