What makes some moyos better than others?

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mitsun
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Re: What makes some moyos better than others?

Post by mitsun »

Several times this game you had a good attack going, but then went for small profit, rather than effectively prosecuting the attack. Perhaps you thought you were taking profit while attacking, but you were actually giving up a strong attack for too little compensation.

:b9: was your best move of the game, attacking on a large scale, not going for small corner profit. Keep looking at the big picture like this!

:b17: may feel like an attacking move (taking away W base), but it is actually quite submissive. W can now regard his previous play as a successful forcing move -- he made a deep invasion and you responded with a low defensive move. If W later runs out to the center, this will turn out to be a great exchange. Your suggestion of M5 would be a true attack, threatening to capture W on a large scale. If you succeed in enclosing W here, it is not obvious he can live, and even if he lives, you will make overwhelming outside influence. You could also consider a really grand attacking move like L7. If you can force yourself to look for and play ambitious moves like this, your game will improve.

The cut :b53: at L6 is an example of missing the big picture and going for small profit. This cut is not an attacking move! Your goal here should be to attack all of the W stones within your extremely strong sphere of influence. Moves like K7 or L8 are the right direction, strengthening your weaker stones and pushing W toward your strong stones. This way even if W escapes, you will create outside thickness which will be useful in other directions. The game move gave W the opportunity to sacrifice a few stones on a small scale, leaving your outside stones weaker and your inside stones over-concentrated.

The later cut :b79: at M7 was exactly the same mistake. Again you went after the lure of a very small profit. This cut is the wrong direction, making incremental territory where you are already extremely strong, while forcing W to move toward your weaker stones in the center. Large scale plays like L8 or M9 would be true attacking moves in the right direction. If your position is not yet strong enough to support these plays, simply defending at J9 (preparing for M9) would be good. This simple defense would constitute much more of a threat against the W group to the right than the game move.
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Post by EdLee »

Fedya wrote:I didn't play the tiger's mouth at :b23: because I distinctly recall having another game reviewed where I did play the tiger's mouth
and was told I should connect directly.
Obviously I don't know when it's right to play the tiger's mouth, and when it's right to connect directly.
Hi Fedya, Yes, this is not uncommon.
Assuming the reviewer was correct in that case, they meant it for that particular situation.
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Re: What makes some moyos better than others?

Post by Uberdude »

Fedya wrote:Uberdude: with :w30: I was afraid of White putting pressure on the stone at F3. I figured that if I lost that White would get a lot of territory, and my group wouldn't be very big at all.


I can understand that fear, though I think it is misplaced: did you read anything that resulted in f3 dying? I too thought maybe white could do something against f3, but had no fear that f3 would die. At most I would think white might be able to live with a tiny group in the h3 area, whilst making black strong around and damaging white's lower left corner. This is not to be feared, it is to be welcomed. But if you did want to assuage your fears, playing 31 at f5 would be a better way to make sure f3 is safe and white can't do any funny business inside, whilst also being a valuable move on the outside for yourself instead of playing inside your own territory.
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Re: What makes some moyos better than others?

Post by Charles Matthews »

Fedya wrote:Charles Matthews: What issue at :b73: ?


Ah yes. From this point until nearly move 100 you play as close as you can, to the white group you are supposed to be attacking. And it doesn't work out. So this is an attack-and-defence perception matter: don't play so close.

You can start by looking for plays that are not in contact, sitting "one line away", but still attack. My suggestion is a type of capping play.

Seems to me, "what makes some moyos better than others?" might come after the question "what makes some attacks better than others?" You have to think of a framework as an arena, of sorts, for attack and defence, before you can sort out the moyo issue. Which must be tough, because a typical go career will meet frameworks of different types, running into four figures.
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Re: What makes some moyos better than others?

Post by Jhyn »

Fedya wrote: I didn't play the tiger's mouth at :b23: because I distinctly recall having another game reviewed where I did play the tiger's mouth and was told I should connect directly.


My personal rule of thumb is: play the direct connection unless you have a precise reason not to.
Usually the reason will be one of: make eye shape (for a group not yet alive), make good shape (helps to go out), or resist to the first-line hane in sente, as in this case.

I would say that in general people around your level play too many tiger mouth connections (especially in yose), but of course each case should be considered separately. If you can dig out the other game's position someone could underline the difference to help you understand.
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Re: What makes some moyos better than others?

Post by ez4u »

At :b61: you felt you had to invade the left side or it would get too big. So you invaded and you exchanged the six marked Black stones for the six white stones. This is a faultless example of making territory while attacking. Unfortunately White was the one attacking and making territory. Look carefully at your stones. They achieve nothing but escape from a small part of White's formation. After 72 they still do not have eyes and can end up subject to further threats in the future.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . W . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . B . B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X X O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X O O X . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X O . X X O O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O O X . X . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X . O . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Move :b61: to the star point in the middle of the top and ask yourself how much White can really make of the left side. Is it going to be more than Black can make in the upper right and center?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X X O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . X O O X . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O X O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X O . X X O O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . O X O O O X . X . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X . O . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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