The mistakes I make

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

mongus wrote:Are these moves essentially useless because I am messing around on the edges whilst my opponent is taking control of the huge area in the centre of the board?
Hi mongus,

You study the whole board situation again,
and figure out for yourself what :w70: - :w74: accomplished.
For each of the 3 W moves, ask yourself these questions:
- Is it making any points ? If yes, how many points ?
- Is it saving an important group ? If yes, how many points ?
- Is it expanding your moyo ?
- Is it attacking a weak enemy group ?
- Otherwise, is it just filling dame (neutral areas) ?

Finally, if you could do it over, and you could play anywhere you want, for three moves in a row (given the board at :b69: ), would you still play :w70: - :w74: now ?
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Re:

Post by mongus »

EdLee wrote:
mongus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ? ? ? ? ?
$$ . . 4 . ?
$$ . O 2 3 ?
$$ X X 1 . ?
$$ . . . . ?[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ? ? ? ? ?
$$ . . 3 . ?
$$ . O 2 4 ?
$$ X X 1 5 ?
$$ . . . . ?[/go]
Hi mongus,

A (standard/common) question for your level (standard/common behavior):
in both of your sample continuations,
why did you atari the cutting stone :b2: ?!
Good point. The answer is just because that is what I instinctively do! I guess somehow I think it is a way of punishing that stone for cutting me. Perhaps this would have been better. I was worried that that lone stone would then be atari'd by :b4:, I'm not sure this is that strong a result :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ? ? ? ? ?
$$ . 5 . . ?
$$ 4 O 2 . ?
$$ X X 1 3 ?
$$ . . . . ?[/go]
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Post by EdLee »

mongus wrote:The answer is just because that is what I instinctively do! I guess somehow I think it is a way of punishing that stone...
Bingo.
( It was a rhetorical question. That's why these levels play it often. :) )

While we're here, maybe you can confirm my suspicion ( or let me know I guess wrong):
Is it true this is how you feel about the atari (in general):
If you atari an enemy stone (or group), you're 'stronger/punishing' (locally), while your enemy stone/group is 'weaker/suffering' ?

Here's another view: :)
Atari depends.

Like any other moves, whether it's good, neutral, or bad for you depends on the particular local and global contexts.

If an atari helps you, you consider it.
If an atari hurts you, you try to avoid it or prevent it to begin with, and figure out what (else) to do; sometimes, it can't be helped. :)

Bad ataris happen. At all levels, not just for yours. :)
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Re:

Post by mongus »

EdLee wrote:
mongus wrote:The answer is just because that is what I instinctively do! I guess somehow I think it is a way of punishing that stone...
Bingo.
( It was a rhetorical question. That's why these levels play it often. :) )

While we're here, maybe you can confirm my suspicion ( or let me know I guess wrong):
Is it true this is how you feel about the atari:
If you atari an enemy stone (or group), you're 'stronger/punishing' (locally), while your enemy stone/group is 'weaker/suffering' ?
Yes!

Although I am slowly starting to learn that this is not actually always the case. I think at least by atari'ing a stone it forces the opponent to respond and thus giving me a free move. However, by saving the stone from atari the opponent may actually be strengthening their position, which I don't want. Currently I don't always have the insight as to when an atari may weaken or strengthen..
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Post by EdLee »

mongus wrote:Currently I don't always have the insight as to when an atari may weaken or strengthen..
Bingo, again.

Turns out, this is (yet) another never-ending growth curve in Go.
We're all still learning to figure this out, only at different levels.
Welcome to the club. :)
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by jeromie »

Ed's totally right that our understanding grows and our instinct changes. I recently went through a group of tesuji problems that emphasized when using an atari as a forcing move in order to develop a position with more influence. I found that I had a surprising blind spot for those problems because my instinct was NOT to atari a stone I can't capture unless it leads to immediate tactical gain. As always, I find that I need to continue to develop my fundamentals!
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by emeraldemon »

Your journal is fun to read, thanks for posting :)

To add to your positions to study, you slipped up towards the very end of the last game, and it's a position worth spending time on, because you will probably see it again. Also it relates to a mistake you mentioned on page 1 of this journal!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . X X . X O O X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X O O . O . 4 3 |
$$ | . . O X . . . X X . X O O O O . O . 5 |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O X X X O X . . . 2 1 |
$$ | . O X X O O X O . X . X O X . O . . 6 |
$$ | . . O X X . X O X X X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . O X X O X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . O O O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | X X X X O O O . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X X O X X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . X X X O X O . . . O O . O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . O . . . . O X X O . O |
$$ | . O . O O O O . . O O O O O O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . X X X X O X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After you played :w6: black played elsewhere, but that was a mistake from black. Where should black play?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . X X . X O O X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X O O . O . O X |
$$ | . . O X . . . X X . X O O O O . O . X |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O X X X O X . . . O X |
$$ | . O X X O O X O . X . X O X . O . 1 O |
$$ | . . O X X . X O X X X O . O . . . 3 2 |
$$ | . O O O X . O X X O X O . . . , 7 6 4 |
$$ | O O X O O O . O O O X . . O . . O 5 . |
$$ | X X X X O O O . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X X O X X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . X X X O X O . . . O O . O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . O . . . . O X X O . O |
$$ | . O . O O O O . . O O O O O O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . X X X X O X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Extra credit: so :w6: was a mistake, but white's problems started earlier. What about :w4: ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . X X . X O O X X X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X O O . O . . 3 |
$$ | . . O X . . . X X . X O O O O . O . 5 |
$$ | . . O X X X X O O X X X O X . . . O X |
$$ | . O X X O O X O . X . X O X . O . 6 4 |
$$ | . . O X X . X O X X X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . O X X O X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | O O X O O O . O O O X . . O . . O . . |
$$ | X X X X O O O . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X X O X X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . X X X O X O . . . O O . O . |
$$ | . . O X X O X . O . . . . O X X O . O |
$$ | . O . O O O O . . O O O O O O X O O X |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . X X X X O X X X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O X . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The atari gives white time to protect the cutting point.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

jeromie wrote:I found that I had a surprising blind spot for those problems because my instinct was NOT to atari a stone I can't capture unless it leads to immediate tactical gain. As always, I find that I need to continue to develop my fundamentals!
Hi Jeromie, very good. ( Highlight added. )
The Eureka! moment when you discover a blind spot is priceless. :)
There are various reasons for different ataris.
Example: you atari an enemy stone/group to make it heavy/heavier,
then just leave it alone (for now; because there's no obvious profit or obvious direction to attack it immediately), but it'll always be a burden for your enemy to worry about for the rest of the game -- this weak group has become a debt, or 'negative' points on the board.
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by mongus »

emeraldemon wrote:Your journal is fun to read, thanks for posting :)

To add to your positions to study, you slipped up towards the very end of the last game, and it's a position worth spending time on, because you will probably see it again. Also it relates to a mistake you mentioned on page 1 of this journal!
Crikey I can't believe I missed that! Thanks. Well worth knowing how to handle that.
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by mongus »

It's been a while since I posted a game. I don't normally get to play many live game due to time constraints but I had some spare time this evening so managed a game on KGS. My game is a lot worse when I play live as I tend to panic and miss obvious moves.

I actually managed to win this game, but I did make some terrible mistakes. Especially in the corners. My main failings were around Move 17 and Move 147.

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Post by EdLee »

Hi Mongus,

Congrats on the win. :)

:w1: If B plays perfectly, W has no chance.
Except for obvious bad moves, like A1, it's OK.

:b8: Good.

:b10: You were scared. No reason to be; it is White who is under pressure here to live.
Look for the a severe plan to pressure W.
Example: B R18 hane, W S18 block; B R16 atari, W S17 connects; B Q18 connects --
W is not alive.

:b16: Bad habit. o16 fix your shape directly.
Don't Help W make good shape and live 100% !

( :b16: , :w17: , :b18: ) Study this sequence:
  • The :b16: - :w17: exchange fixes ALL of W's weakness here;
  • W makes good shape with :w17: ;
  • W is 100% alive with :w17: ;
  • After :b16:, there's still a cut P17 in B's shape ;
  • After :b18:, there's STILL a cut P17 !
That's why :b16: is not good; instead, fix your weakness directly at o16.

:b22: You already spent THREE moves here ( :b16: , :b18: , :b22: ),
and you still haven't fixed your cuts !
Again: :b16: at o16 directly !

:b24: This makes little sense: you force W to capture More of your stones.
Atari P16 instead -- limit your loss.

:b30: Gote.

:w31: W should tenuki.

:b32: Too small, too slow. Completely missing the big picture,
completely not looking at the whole board, global situation --
both Black and White.

:w33: Finally, a little tenuki.

:b34: Too small, too slow. Why reply to :w33: ? The board is still very open !

Bill calls this Follow-itis --
you're blindly followng White ( he does the same, sometimes ).

Look at the whole board: play what you think is the biggest move.

Study :b32: , :b34: again: would you still play them now ?

:b46: Slow. Follow-itis. Locally, J12 is faster.

:b48: Soft. Example: B kicks E17, W extends F16, B jumps D14 --
first make W heavy, then attack it.

:b56: Again, you were scared. W jumped into your moyo,
into your area of strength -- it is White who should be under pressure,
under attack !
Study and compare the :b48: variation above with the current game result.

:b60: Slow. Follow-itis. Missing the whole board.

:b62: Slow. Follow-itis. Missing the whole board.

:b64: Slow. Follow-itis. Missing the whole board.

:w65: Someone finally wakes up.

:b70: You tell us why this is not good.
:w69: is not a good move; you're happy to reply (e.g. D6 ).

:b72: Follow-itis. Compare D11 with D6 -- which is bigger ?

:b74: Follow-itis.

We see many of the same recurring problems from previous games,
and up to here.
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by mongus »

Many thanks for your feedback. The main take away is I need to learn to sit back a little and take in the whole board. I tend to panic too much, especially when playing live games which distorts my vision.
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by Bill Spight »

Congratulations on your win. :)

A review. :)




Main focus: Learn the net.

Edit: Revised variation at move 166. Added variation at move 171. Silly me! ;)
Last edited by Bill Spight on Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by mongus »

Bill Spight wrote:
Main focus: Learn the net.
Many thanks for your very thorough review. I have coincidentally just started reading the section in Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go regarding nets. I also need to stop playing along the bottom row so much.
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Re: The mistakes I make

Post by mongus »

Managed to get another game in tonight. My focus was to stop every move and ask myself what the biggest move was and not just blindly chasing my opponent. I think I failed at the second move. But apart from that I think having that focus really helped. I looked out for nets, but couldn't really see any opportunities. I think I need to do a lot more study on them before they become clear.

It was quite a short game, my opponent resigned after move 126.

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