E4 : 21.3% with 40k playouts :
Other options are to tenuki, but with kinda low playouts (lower than B3).
Edit : added the "best" continuation that LZ plan for each of these moves
dutchie's journal
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Tryss
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Re: dutchie's journal
LZ with over 50k playout consider localy :
E4 : 21.3% with 40k playouts :
F3 : 21.6% with 16k playouts :
B3 : 20.7% with 4.7k playouts :
G3 and E3 get less than 20 playouts (so, not really seriously considered), with sub 20% winrate each
Other options are to tenuki, but with kinda low playouts (lower than B3).
Edit : added the "best" continuation that LZ plan for each of these moves
E4 : 21.3% with 40k playouts :
Other options are to tenuki, but with kinda low playouts (lower than B3).
Edit : added the "best" continuation that LZ plan for each of these moves
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Uberdude
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EdLee
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Hi Tryss,
Thank you.
Noob question: is there a significance between the 40k (E4) v. 16k (F3) playouts ? Their winrates are very close ( 21.3% & 21.6% ),
but the playouts are quite different ?
Is it Lizzie ? Very pretty interface.
Just curious: what's LZ's winrate for
, given 2-stones ?
Does
's winrate start from ~0% and climb up to ~20% by 
?
Or is it the opposite ?'s winrate starts out higher than 20% at ( but under 50%, obviously ), and drops to ~20% by ?
Thank you.
Noob question: is there a significance between the 40k (E4) v. 16k (F3) playouts ? Their winrates are very close ( 21.3% & 21.6% ),
but the playouts are quite different ?
Is it Lizzie ? Very pretty interface.
Just curious: what's LZ's winrate for
, given 2-stones ?Does
's winrate start from ~0% and climb up to ~20% by ?Or is it the opposite ?
's winrate starts out higher than 20% at ( but under 50%, obviously ), and drops to ~20% by ?-
Tryss
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Re: dutchie's journal
Before , LZ gives white around 21% winrate, so there is no real winrate change by . Note that this evaluation is with 7.5 komi for white .
For the playouts, I'm pretty sure the difference is noise (due to the randomness of the tree exploration). I just did another run, and the results were :
F3 : 21.4% winrate with 42k playouts
E4 : 21.0% winrate with 33k playouts
B3 : 20.5% winrate with 8k playouts
So while last time LZ would have played E4, this time it would have played F3.
(I spend a little more playouts here, but the result would have been the same if I stopped a little earlier : F3 took the lead early this time)
And yes, this is lizzie
, LZ gives white around 21% winrate, so there is no real winrate change by . Note that this evaluation is with 7.5 komi for white .For the playouts, I'm pretty sure the difference is noise (due to the randomness of the tree exploration). I just did another run, and the results were :
F3 : 21.4% winrate with 42k playouts
E4 : 21.0% winrate with 33k playouts
B3 : 20.5% winrate with 8k playouts
So while last time LZ would have played E4, this time it would have played F3.
(I spend a little more playouts here, but the result would have been the same if I stopped a little earlier : F3 took the lead early this time)
And yes, this is lizzie
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EdLee
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Re: dutchie's journal
Huh, interesting analysis. I'm surprised W is down to only ~20% winrate after less that 20 moves!
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Bill Spight
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Re: dutchie's journal
dutchie wrote:Huh, interesting analysis. I'm surprised W is down to only ~20% winrate after less that 20 moves!
EdLee wrote:Just curious: what's LZ's winrate for , given 2-stones ?
Tryss wrote:Before , LZ gives white around 21% winrate, so there is no real winrate change by . Note that this evaluation is with 7.5 komi for white .
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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dutchie
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Re: dutchie's journal
Again it's been too long. I've played (and lost) a couple tonight. One was a fun close fight that I ended up losing by 22.5. I'll attach it in case anyone is interested and wants to open up the SGF themselves for any comments, but I reviewed it with my opponent and I'm much more curious about the second game, where I ended up with a wall across the centre and then messed up attacks (kills?) on two invading groups. I went through and added some thoughts of my own, but the opening was a little weird as well as messing up the fights in the midgame.
- Attachments
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- 20180822-Neosilver.sgf
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- 20180822-Aralsa.sgf
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EdLee
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Hi dutchie,
human.
slow.
human:
slow, small.
( The game was B to lose after here. )
, 
how about kick-pincer combo ?
Does LZ like o17 area ?
What does LZ think of this ?
What does LZ think about @ F9 directly ?
( foundation shapes study...
)
(+ ), ( + 
) Foundation shapes study .
Instead of these 4 moves, imagine just 1 move around o17 area.
( Variation in SGF here still not sensing global perspective. )
Recent thread about direction.
note in SGF, "...make shape in the middle" --
Still missing global perspective, what mistakes led B to this position,
how to handle these stones.
(
+ 
) Hmm. Note in SGF, "No mindless atari" is good;
but insufficient here. ( emphasis on mindless, not atari. )
Problem here is knowledge gaps in foundation shapes.
(+ ), ( + ) See Toothpaste and fractured shapes.
P16. Foundation shapes study .
human. slow. human: slow, small.( The game was B to lose after here. )
, how about kick-pincer combo ? Does LZ like o17 area ? What does LZ think of this ? What does LZ think about @ F9 directly ?( foundation shapes study...
)(
+ ), ( + ) Foundation shapes study .Instead of these 4 moves, imagine just 1 move around o17 area.
( Variation in SGF here still not sensing global perspective. )
Recent thread about direction.
note in SGF, "...make shape in the middle" --Still missing global perspective, what mistakes led B to this position,
how to handle these stones.
(
+ ) Hmm. Note in SGF, "No mindless atari" is good;but insufficient here. ( emphasis on mindless, not atari. )
Problem here is knowledge gaps in foundation shapes.
(
+ ), ( + ) See Toothpaste and fractured shapes. P16. Foundation shapes study .-
Tryss
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Re:
AfterEdLee wrote:
( The game was B to lose after here. )
, LZ gives white around 30% winrateLZ choice. Interesting note : her favorite pincer after the kick is D11. This move is never on my radar, so I learned something new here. (but other pincers seems playable)
LZ choice too
-11% winrate, black advantage is mostly gone (black has now 53% winrate)
You mean D9? (L9 is in the middle of the board). If so, less bad, but LZ favorite move is the D8 kosumi
( foundation shapes study...
The elephant eye at E11 feels like a serious mistake. I mean, LZ can manage to get an ok result from it, but the knight move at E10 or the 1 space jump at E9 feels much less error prone.
After 37, black winrate is down to 22%, a loss of over 40% winrate compared to the situation after
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EdLee
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Hi Tryss,
Thanks.
Human reasoning: D12 too close to
W's iron pillar, so pull back to D11 ( but I don't know bot reasoning ).
at E11 ? You're not building a huge moyo. Just take a big point ( O17 area ) and keep the lead.
Thanks.
Yea, D11 quite natural.favorite pincer after the kick is D11. This move is never on my radar
Human reasoning: D12 too close toW's iron pillar, so pull back to D11 ( but I don't know bot reasoning
).
Thanks; typo: I meant F9 knight's. D8 kosumi, thanks.You mean D9? but LZ favorite move is the D8 kosumi
@dutchie: LZ's 'hint' to you: what was your plan for
at E11 ? You're not building a huge moyo. Just take a big point ( O17 area ) and keep the lead.@dutchie, LZ's lesson for you (thanks to Tryss): how to lose the game in 8 moves...After
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dutchie
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Re: dutchie's journal
Thank you folks, a lot to think about. I honestly completely forgot that kick/pincer moves even existed, Direction of play and whole board thinking are so important!
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EdLee
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