It is currently Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:33 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
Post #1 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:21 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1087
Location: Earth
Liked others: 346
Was liked: 180
position inspired by a another thread

(White to play, I changed colors. Dont ask, just count the stones)


Attachments:
bookdiacc.jpg
bookdiacc.jpg [ 242.5 KiB | Viewed 913 times ]


Last edited by Gomoto on Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
Post #2 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:26 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1087
Location: Earth
Liked others: 346
Was liked: 180
I personally started to question all my go literature since strong AI is available.

If the question in this positions is: Where to play strategically, top or bottom?

ELF's answer would be: "Doesn't matter".


This post by Gomoto was liked by 2 people: Bill Spight, Calvin Clark
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
Post #3 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:47 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 398
Liked others: 167
Was liked: 179
Interesting. This is what I get when I run ELFV1 on this:

Attachment:
omeien-take2.png
omeien-take2.png [ 1.22 MiB | Viewed 866 times ]


Here is the analysis of a diagram I posted with the bottom right stones in the wrong place, just for curiosity's sake. (Thanks, explo, for the correction.)

Attachment:
elfv1-omeien.png
elfv1-omeien.png [ 1.24 MiB | Viewed 881 times ]


Which weights/parameters are you using?


Last edited by Calvin Clark on Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
Post #4 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:01 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 74
Location: France
Liked others: 10
Was liked: 13
Rank: FFG 1d
Calvin, you don't have the stones in the lower right corner in the same position as gomoto.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
Post #5 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:11 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 398
Liked others: 167
Was liked: 179
It is interesting that the AI is already considering contact plays in this position. I am curious about how ELFv1 (or really any engine) would evaluate the contact plays marked below. I include both angle plays and attachments. Remembering that white is already considered to be ahead in this position and it's white's move, some (but not all) of these plays are bad enough to put white behind. Some are actually okay. But which ones? Think about it a bit. I will post what I find later. And before anyone says, "Come on, Calvin, the 2-2 point is obviously bad!" remember what we've learned in the past few years. Keep an open mind. :lol:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Contact plays
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c c c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c X c . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . c c c c . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . c X c . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . c c c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c c c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c X c . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . c c c . . . . . . . c c c . . . . |
$$ | . c c c . . . . . , . . c X c , . . . |
$$ | . c X c . . . . . . . . c c c . O . . |
$$ | . c c c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(edited to match Gomoto's diagram).


Last edited by Calvin Clark on Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
Post #6 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:17 pm 
Judan

Posts: 5632
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 315
Was liked: 2984
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
I believe Tami omitted a black stone from the book diagram at f4, see that thread if/when she confirms. Then the lower side being the place to play is "no s***, sherlock" for me and the bots agree.

(apparently this forum has some auto-replace censoring that spoiled my sibilance!)


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
Post #7 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:24 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1087
Location: Earth
Liked others: 346
Was liked: 180
(Just derailing the thread)

LOL

O Meien also talks about finite and infinite go. I remember ...

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
Post #8 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:28 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 398
Liked others: 167
Was liked: 179
explo wrote:
Calvin, you don't have the stones in the lower right corner in the same position as gomoto.


Well, we see how AI has polluted me already, then. I'll leave that up and re-do. :lol: Thanks.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
Post #9 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:59 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1087
Location: Earth
Liked others: 346
Was liked: 180
And now a somewhat different position ;-)

black to play

ELF's statement:


Attachments:
bookdia2.jpg
bookdia2.jpg [ 162.1 KiB | Viewed 861 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Book Diagram (ELF's opinion)
Post #10 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:33 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 398
Liked others: 167
Was liked: 179
From Zone Press Park, I think O Meien mostly sees huge sector lines like this. A lot of the book is more understandable that way. Except for the food part. It doesn't help there.

Attachment:
sectors-omeien.png
sectors-omeien.png [ 875.32 KiB | Viewed 847 times ]


This post by Calvin Clark was liked by: Gomoto
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group