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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #21 Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:34 pm 
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kyulearner wrote:
Below are the part of the article siting her training in South Korea.
プロ棋士の仲邑信也九段(45)と、囲碁の元インストラクターの幸(みゆき)さん(38)のひとりっ子。幸さんの手ほどきで3歳で碁を覚え、7歳から一家3人で韓国・ソウルに渡って修業。日本での義務教育履修のため日韓の往復生活を続けた。幸さんによると、菫さんはすぐに韓国語を覚え、両親の通訳にもなっているという。一昨年、現地の小学生低学年のチャンピオンに。昨年、韓国棋院のプロ候補生である研究生になった。
 韓国で“囲碁漬け”の日々を送ってきた。平日は名門「韓鐘振(ハンジョンジン)囲碁道場」で、週末は韓国棋院で対局を重ねてきた。現地のプロ志望の子どもたちは朝、学校に顔を出すとすぐに道場に向かい、夕方まで囲碁の勉強をする子が多い。
 「子どもたちの囲碁環境が日本と全く違う。あれを見て、菫が世界を狙うには韓国で勉強させなければと思った」と、父の信也九段が言う。根っからの負けず嫌いで、負けると大泣きする。その勝負魂が道場で高く評価されている。
 道場を主宰する韓鐘振九段は「菫の才能は、現在の女流世界一である韓国の崔精(チェジョン)九段(22)に劣らない。むしろ上達のスピードは崔より速い。このままいけば女流の世界チャンピオンになるのはもちろん、男性のトップ棋士とも対等に戦えると思う」と話す。

Google translation of the relevant passage is below. Indeed, she is trained in Korea. I hope more young promising Japanese Go players will also take the same path by studying in Korea or China. This will undoubtedly help Japanese Go immensely.

I am learning go at the age of 3 at the hands of Mr. Sachi, and from the age of 7 studying overseas to Korea · 3 people. I continued the round-trip living in Japan and Korea for the purpose of taking compulsory education in Japan. According to Mr. Susumu, Mr. Susumu immediately learned Korean and became an interpreter for parents. Two years ago, champion of local elementary school student low grade. Last year, I became a research student who is a pro candidate of a Korean shogun.
I have sent "days of pickling" days in Korea. Weekday is the prestigious "Hanjongjin Game Go Dojo" and on weekends she has played in the Korean shogunate. Children who wish to be a local professional go to the dojo as soon as they face the school in the morning, and many children study Go for the evening.
"Children's go environment is completely different from Japan, I thought if Sumire wanted to study the world, I thought I had to study in Korea," Father Shinya Kuzu says. I do not like to lose, I cry a lot when I lose. That battle spirit is highly appreciated at the dojo.
Hanbao Kuroda, presiding the dojo, said, "Sumire's talent is not less than Korean Choi Jeong (22) who is the world's most female current female, rather the speed of progress is faster than Choi, I think I can fight equally with men's top players, not to mention becoming champions.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #22 Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:37 pm 
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macelee wrote:
There were other 9-year old professionals, such as Chang Hao (born 1976-11-07, becoming pro in 1986 - not sure the exact date, but Chinese promotion event were almost always held in summer).


I hope this information is incorrect, since Chang Hao was the Chinese representative at the World Amateur Go Championship (which he won) in 1990, when he was 14. Pros are not allowed to play in this event.

Typically, Chinese representatives who win the WAGC are promoted to pro as a result, or at least that used to be the case. One can recognize many other Chinese pro names as past winners of the WAGC: https://senseis.xmp.net/?WorldAmateurGoChampionship

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #23 Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:38 am 
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The Chinese player, Lu Liyan, at the KPMC (which is also supposed to be an amateur event) this year had recently passed the pro test, though I don't know if he was officially 1p yet. Here is he beating up Ilya Shikshin in the prelims of the Bailing Cup: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 01#p234201.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #24 Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:57 am 
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sorin wrote:
I hope this information is incorrect, since Chang Hao was the Chinese representative at the World Amateur Go Championship (which he won) in 1990, when he was 14. Pros are not allowed to play in this event.


Maybe an explanation on the Chinese Wikipedia page on WAGC https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/世界业余围棋锦标赛

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/世界业余围棋锦标赛 wrote:
中国棋手成绩最好的主要原因之一,是因为在1991年之前,中国围棋尚未职业化,参赛的选手实际上都是以业余身份参赛的专业棋手(共9人次)

Google Translates this as

"One of the main reasons for the best scores of Chinese players is that before 1991, Chinese Go was not professionalized, and the participating players were actually professional players who participated in amateur status (9 in total)."

But then, what was the definition of "professional player" in China before 1991?

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #25 Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:47 am 
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Nice though this story is, I can't help but note that it seems rather scary to have, at the tender age of ten, your future defined for you in this way.

Regarding professionals in amateur tournaments, the organisers validate who plays. I am sure they know about the qualifications of the 'top' entrants. Not much scope for scandal there.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #26 Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:33 am 
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jlt wrote:
"One of the main reasons for the best scores of Chinese players is that before 1991, Chinese Go was not professionalized, and the participating players were actually professional players who participated in amateur status (9 in total)."

But then, what was the definition of "professional player" in China before 1991?


I remember I heard about the distinction between "local pro" and "national pro", as something specific to China. This had to do with whether one's pro status was granted by some local (province-wide maybe, or even narrower) Go body, or the national body.

Maybe Chang Hao became "local pro" at 10, and "national pro" at 14-15, only after winning WAGC in 1990?

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #27 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:07 am 
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There is now an official Nihon Ki-in Youtube video of her game with Iyama Yuta: https://youtu.be/SbrxGo6Wi9E

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #28 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:14 am 
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sorin wrote:
There is now an official Nihon Ki-in Youtube video of her game with Iyama Yuta: https://youtu.be/SbrxGo6Wi9E


That is so impressive.

She can just sit in that chair concentrating for so long. I teach 10 year olds. They can't sit still for 5 minutes :lol: :lol:

I think it's amazing kids like these exist. It's like reading through Invincible and then suddenly being reminded: these first games are played by a 13 year old. One who didn't have the patience to play with slow-playing opponents, even, and got up to move around a bit. One who played quite fast himself. Yet the moves are so mature and well-read-out. It's so impressive.

This girl would beat me to a pulp giving me 9 stones. To think about that is ... odd :D

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #29 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:51 pm 
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sorin wrote:
There is now an official Nihon Ki-in Youtube video of her game with Iyama Yuta: https://youtu.be/SbrxGo6Wi9E


Computer analysis with GRP and last Leela Zero network #200.
See attachments for original and analyze.


Attachments:
Analyze Sumire-Iyama-2019.1.6.sgf [318.27 KiB]
Downloaded 63 times
Original Sumire-Iyama-2019.1.6.sgf [1.6 KiB]
Downloaded 40 times

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #30 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:35 am 
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mb76 wrote:
sorin wrote:
There is now an official Nihon Ki-in Youtube video of her game with Iyama Yuta: https://youtu.be/SbrxGo6Wi9E
Computer analysis with GRP and last Leela Zero network #200.
See attachments for original and analyze.
Thank you! Long live the GRP!

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #31 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:02 pm 
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OK, but does anyone know Sumire's actual strength? Is she already of professional strength, or is she really a strong amateur at this point but is expected to grow quickly?

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #32 Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:36 am 
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FYI I added some more analysis to my LZ analysis of the s12 peep exchange, to find the same peep loses over 20% when in a position it's more clearly going to become an unconditional loss of 2 points.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #33 Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:26 am 
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Quote:
to find the same peep loses over 20% when in a position it's more clearly going to become an unconditional loss of 2 points.


Are you also saying this is possible evidence for saying a 10 percentage point change in AI winrate corresponds to about 1 point? That seems to equate to my sense of what other threads have already concluded about winrates.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #34 Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:55 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
to find the same peep loses over 20% when in a position it's more clearly going to become an unconditional loss of 2 points.

Are you also saying this is possible evidence for saying a 10 percentage point change in AI winrate corresponds to about 1 point? That seems to equate to my sense of what other threads have already concluded about winrates.

Yes, of the same ballpark, though bear in mind different bots can give quite different winrate changes for the same moves. The 10% ~= 1 point in the opening was something I saw Nikola Mitic (who studied as insei in Japan) reported as being the thoughts of pros for Elf (I'm guessing the newer v1) which generally has bigger swings in the opening than LZ. Interestingly Elfv1 thought Iyama's peep in this game was barely a mistake, I've not tried running it against the sequences I got out of LZ 198 to explain why LZ 198 thinks it is bad. Also something I think I've noticed (but unscientifically) is the newer 40-block LZ networks are giving bigger winrate swings than their older and weaker brethren (which is expected, a perfect player would shoot to 100% as soon as you make that 1 point mistake that loses the game on move 5).

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #35 Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:00 pm 
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The latest video on the London Go Centre's video channel is Daniel Hu's analysis of Nakamura Sumire's game against Iyama Yuta

It looks like the the world's youngest pro missed a chance to deliver a shock to Japan's #1 on move 93 though as Daniel Hu says it's a complicated 14 move read.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBGI3t ... H8IAsr6Ucw


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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #36 Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:03 am 
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Image

1/23/19, Nakamura Sumire will be playing a game with Choi Jeong.
She will play with Black with no Komi.

Image
Interviewed by Korean and Japanese media. From left Han Jongjin 9p(Teacher), Miyuki(Mother), Sumire and Shinya(Father)

Han Jongjin said that Sumire hate losing more than anyone else and plays hide and seek, and other board game like any other children during break.


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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #37 Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:21 am 
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She lost pretty badly, was something like 30 points behind even if her big group didn't die. The o6 atari resistance spectacularly backfired. Winrates are from no komi LZ 157.

Hopefully she can normally play better than this and the pressure/nerves got to her (she is only 9!), plus Choi is really strong (occasionally beats top men). Gotta be tough for a little kid in the limelight...



Attachments:
Choi Jeong vs Nakamura Sumire.sgf [9.43 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #38 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:10 pm 
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Does anyone know Sumire's actual strength? Is she already of professional strength, or is she really a strong amateur at this point?

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #39 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:14 am 
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TheCannyOnion wrote:
Does anyone know Sumire's actual strength?

I expect her teachers have a decent idea. We here are just guessing from very little data.

TheCannyOnion wrote:
Is she already of professional strength, or is she really a strong amateur at this point?

Where do you draw the line? I suppose she's stronger than EGF 6d (though less certain after Choi game, probably most EGF 6d have more experience and mental fortitude, she is only 9 after all) but weaker than a top Chinese amateur like Bai Baoxiang or Wang Chen, who are basically mid-level pro strength and probably stronger than more than half the pros in the world (including plenty of old 9ps and most female pros).

Seeing as Han Jongjin says she hates losing, IMO having these exhibition games against top pros might not be the best idea for a little kid's wellbeing, why not play some weaker players that she might beat to gain confidence?

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #40 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:13 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Seeing as Han Jongjin says she hates losing, IMO having these exhibition games against top pros might not be the best idea for a little kid's wellbeing, why not play some weaker players that she might beat to gain confidence?


Maybe so, maybe not. :) When I was coming along in bridge, my favorite opponents were world and national champions. I was older than 9, but you rise to the challenge. As Billie Jean King puts it, you raise the level of your game. :)

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