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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #41 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:04 am 
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TheCannyOnion wrote:
Is she already of professional strength, or is she really a strong amateur at this point?

Where do you draw the line? I suppose she's stronger than EGF 6d (though less certain after Choi game, probably most EGF 6d have more experience and mental fortitude, she is only 9 after all) but weaker than a top Chinese amateur like Bai Baoxiang or Wang Chen, who are basically mid-level pro strength and probably stronger than more than half the pros in the world (including plenty of old 9ps and most female pros).

Seeing as Han Jongjin says she hates losing, IMO having these exhibition games against top pros might not be the best idea for a little kid's wellbeing, why not play some weaker players that she might beat to gain confidence?

Where do you draw the line when it comes to certifying new professionals in Japan? I understand that Sumire's promotion is by recommendation, rather than going through the insei leagues. Still, I wonder if this was a wise move after all. It just doesn't feel right...

To me, her promotion – for lack of a better word – desecrates the normal certification process. Dozens of inseis run the gauntlet every year to qualify for a few precious spots. Just imagine the fierce competition they have to endure, the sacrifice they have to make... Then along came our little Sumire who, sweetly cherubic and undoubtedly not without talent, helicoptered right past the inseis, all the while being feted and basked in media spotlight. Love the buzz and headlines, but I wonder if hers is at least partially a case of publicity stunt, or an attempt to drum up flagging state of Go in Japan by way of generating public interest, perhaps to inspire little children to take up the game. Whatever the motivation or justification, I find her 'promotion' a wee bit sacrilegious, but then again, I'm just a decrepit traditionalist.

Mind you, I don't doubt her strength as being on par with or better than decent Japanese amateurs, and I'm in no position to judge her 'potential'... But, as you pointed out, all the media circus and pressure might not be good for her, which makes me wonder if the powers that be have thought this through. I sincerely hope that direct promotion of Sumire's type never happens again. The professional shodan certificate (in modern times) should be regarded as a sacred object that has to be earned on merit, not given.


Last edited by TheCannyOnion on Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:12 am, edited 9 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #42 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:28 am 
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She's the pioneer of the new additional way of promotion to pro. There will be many other kids to follow in her path later on so she will only be in the limelight for now. It shouldn't be too much pressure for her as both her parents are part of the go scene as well.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #43 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:21 am 
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Cho Chikun 9p became a pro at eleven. Fujisawa Rina 4p became a pro a littler younger, and Nakamura Sumire 1p a little younger still, although she reminds me much of Cho 9p (even with Japan-Korea element, except with the roles reversed). Hopefully, she won't have to lose too often. I believe all of the nihonkiins new shodans have exhibition matches (against pros of about the same level as Choi Jeong 9p, although perhaps it's true if she plays future games they would best be nearer to her level). Fujisawa 4p has gone on to break another record so Nakamura Sumire can take the one for youngest pro :).

Apart from training in professional norms, the three main tests for professionals seem to be firstly on the ability to win matches in a single competitive situation (the pro exam), secondly on actual overall strength of the player (promotion based on average nihinokiin insei ranking across Jan-Feb-Mar or thereabouts) and thirdly on potential or merit. So strength is one of three or four elements; I don't think her promotion is too fanciful through that consideration. Perhaps the female pro exam is like a combination of one and two, whereas what I think the Kansai Kiin system to be of promotion after winning one game against a professional seems an extreme version of one, although I might be getting a bit of topic here; anyway, unless I've been mistaken, there have been quite a few special promotions from the Nihon Kiin...

If strength is the most important element, then a year from now may be the best time to make comparisons (in terms of age and having played enough pro games).

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #44 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:46 am 
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Elom wrote:
Cho Chikun 9p became a pro at eleven. Fujisawa Rina 4p became a pro a littler younger, and Nakamura Sumire 1p a little younger still, although she reminds me much of Cho 9p (even with Japan-Korea element, except with the roles reversed). Hopefully, she won't have to lose too often. I believe all of the nihonkiins new shodans have exhibition matches (against pros of about the same level as Choi Jeong 9p, although perhaps it's true if she plays future games they would best be nearer to her level). Fujisawa 4p has gone on to break another record so Nakamura Sumire can take the one for youngest pro :).

Apart from training in professional norms, the three main tests for professionals seem to be firstly on the ability to win matches in a single competitive situation (the pro exam), secondly on actual overall strength of the player (promotion based on average nihinokiin insei ranking across Jan-Feb-Mar or thereabouts) and thirdly on potential or merit. So strength is one of three or four elements; I don't think her promotion is too fanciful through that consideration. Perhaps the female pro exam is like a combination of one and two, whereas what I think the Kansai Kiin system to be of promotion after winning one game against a professional seems an extreme version of one, although I might be getting a bit of topic here; anyway, unless I've been mistaken, there have been quite a few special promotions from the Nihon Kiin...

If strength is the most important element, then a year from now may be the best time to make comparisons (in terms of age and having played enough pro games).

Ah, my dear Elom, but Sumire was never an insei, she never took the 'pro exam', and she has never participated in the insei league. As far as I know, she was plucked from obscurity by a panel and promoted directly to professional status. Meanwhile, outside the fawning spotlight, dozens of inseis are toiling mightily against each other for a precious few openings. If strength is the most important element for promotion, as it should, then let Sumire participate in the insei league to prove her merit.

I understand Sumire was deemed to have some talent and upside to merit this special promotion, but I find this entire affair rather distasteful. Mind you, I'm not criticizing Sumire in any way; she's cute as a button. I'm simply miffed by the adults behind this 'special promotion' malarkey, which cheapens the Shodan diploma and trivializes competition, not to mention is unfair to the current as well as aspiring inseis who must earn their promotion the hard way.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #45 Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:11 pm 
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Ah, my dear Elom, but Sumire was never an insei, she never took the 'pro exam', and she has never participated in the insei league. As far as I know, she was plucked from obscurity by a panel and promoted directly to professional status. Meanwhile, outside the fawning spotlight, dozens of inseis are toiling mightily against each other for a precious few openings. If strength is the most important element for promotion, as it should, then let Sumire participate in the insei league to prove her merit.

I understand Sumire was deemed to have some talent and upside to merit this special promotion, but I find this entire affair rather distasteful. Mind you, I'm not criticizing Sumire in any way; she's cute as a button. I'm simply miffed by the adults behind this 'special promotion' malarkey, which cheapens the Shodan diploma and trivializes competition, not to mention is unfair to the current as well as aspiring inseis who must earn their promotion the hard way.


I think you need to raise your eyes from the floor and look at the big picture.

The current system is not really working. Japanese parents are now reluctant to pay professionals for tuition, and even more reluctant to go down the old live-in pupil road. The result is that keen aspirants are now playing in a sort of part-time insei system or studying alone for the pro exams. That means they are taking longer and longer to reach pro strength. In the latest crop of four new pros in the Nihon Ki-in, the youngest is 13. Not too long ago that would have caused a stir of hope. Now it's time to buy a Zimmer frame. The other three new pros were 22, 19 and 17.

The 17-year-old, Ikemoto Ryota, scored an incredible 157-9 in his inseiship. With apparent talent like that, why is he starting prodom at 17? Does it tell us something about the level of competition in the insei ranks?

The Nihon Ki-in is not a government body. It is a self-perpetuating guild. It does not have to make its ranks open to just anybody. It "owes" nothing to the public as a potential employer. It has made its entry system more or less open in recent years but more out of desperation than choice. Those who have succeeded (domestically) have generally been older than in the past and/or are foreign-born. Internationally, their collective accomplishments have been disappointing. The Nihon Ki-in is just not getting the right clay to make bricks. And it can't change Japan or the world. But what it can do is spot an opportunity and grasp it. So kudos to them for that.

You can have a separate debate about putting too much on the shoulders of a very young player (recall Tracy Austin in tennis), but that's not the Nihon Ki-in's responsibility. Its responsibility is to its own existing members (other pros).


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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #46 Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:20 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
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Ah, my dear Elom, but Sumire was never an insei, she never took the 'pro exam', and she has never participated in the insei league. As far as I know, she was plucked from obscurity by a panel and promoted directly to professional status. Meanwhile, outside the fawning spotlight, dozens of inseis are toiling mightily against each other for a precious few openings. If strength is the most important element for promotion, as it should, then let Sumire participate in the insei league to prove her merit.

I understand Sumire was deemed to have some talent and upside to merit this special promotion, but I find this entire affair rather distasteful. Mind you, I'm not criticizing Sumire in any way; she's cute as a button. I'm simply miffed by the adults behind this 'special promotion' malarkey, which cheapens the Shodan diploma and trivializes competition, not to mention is unfair to the current as well as aspiring inseis who must earn their promotion the hard way.


I think you need to raise your eyes from the floor and look at the big picture.

The current system is not really working. Japanese parents are now reluctant to pay professionals for tuition, and even more reluctant to go down the old live-in pupil road. The result is that keen aspirants are now playing in a sort of part-time insei system or studying alone for the pro exams. That means they are taking longer and longer to reach pro strength. In the latest crop of four new pros in the Nihon Ki-in, the youngest is 13. Not too long ago that would have caused a stir of hope. Now it's time to buy a Zimmer frame. The other three new pros were 22, 19 and 17.

The 17-year-old, Ikemoto Ryota, scored an incredible 157-9 in his inseiship. With apparent talent like that, why is he starting prodom at 17? Does it tell us something about the level of competition in the insei ranks?

The Nihon Ki-in is not a government body. It is a self-perpetuating guild. It does not have to make its ranks open to just anybody. It "owes" nothing to the public as a potential employer. It has made its entry system more or less open in recent years but more out of desperation than choice. Those who have succeeded (domestically) have generally been older than in the past and/or are foreign-born. Internationally, their collective accomplishments have been disappointing. The Nihon Ki-in is just not getting the right clay to make bricks. And it can't change Japan or the world. But what it can do is spot an opportunity and grasp it. So kudos to them for that.

You can have a separate debate about putting too much on the shoulders of a very young player (recall Tracy Austin in tennis), but that's not the Nihon Ki-in's responsibility. Its responsibility is to its own existing members (other pros).

Thank you for the very informative background. I had no idea how decrepit the current insei system is, and I didn't know the dearth of young talent in Japan is so very severe. Viewed in that light, I now can appreciate why Sumire's promotion bypassed the insei system.

Is there any hope for Japanese Go to make a comeback of sorts in the next 20 to 30 years, given the dire state of things currently?

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Post #47 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:53 am 
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According to Nihon Kiin, this girl is to play an exhibition game again Hei Jiajia during the Senko Cup later this month. She will take black with no komi.

In my opinion, such activities (in high frequency) are good for the promotion of the game, but definitely bad for the girl.


Last edited by macelee on Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #48 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:32 am 
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(in high frequency) are... definitely bad for the girl.
Educating a child prodigy is very tricky.

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Post #49 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:14 am 
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And I think she still has her Shin-shodan match to play.

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #50 Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:45 pm 
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Could anyone who speaks Korean please explain what happened in this video? Sumire appears to be crying after losing a match to a little Korean boy. Does anyone recognize this Korean boy? Is he a professional in South Korea? If not, what's the boy's rank? Was this game played with handicaps, and was there a komi?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwgM3LIddqo

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 Post subject: Re: 10 year old Japanese pro
Post #51 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:10 am 
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TheCannyOnion wrote:
Could anyone who speaks Korean please explain what happened in this video? Sumire appears to be crying after losing a match to a little Korean boy. Does anyone recognize this Korean boy? Is he a professional in South Korea? If not, what's the boy's rank? Was this game played with handicaps, and was there a komi?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwgM3LIddqo

She was playing against 10 years old boy whom she thought she could beat. But she was losing in that game and could not stop crying. She used to cry a lot when she loses game to someone whom she thought she is stronger. Now these days, she no longer cries any more.


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Post #52 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:56 pm 
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trout wrote:
TheCannyOnion wrote:
Could anyone who speaks Korean please explain what happened in this video? Sumire appears to be crying after losing a match to a little Korean boy. Does anyone recognize this Korean boy? Is he a professional in South Korea? If not, what's the boy's rank? Was this game played with handicaps, and was there a komi?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwgM3LIddqo

She was playing against 10 years old boy whom she thought she could beat. But she was losing in that game and could not stop crying. She used to cry a lot when she loses game to someone whom she thought she is stronger. Now these days, she no longer cries any more.


Is this 10-year-old boy a Korean professional, or is he an amateur? What's his dan grade? Thank you.

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Post #53 Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:14 pm 
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Is this 10-year-old boy a Korean professional, or is he an amateur? What's his dan grade? Thank you.
The boy is not professional. My guess is that this game was played during Amateur Go Tournament.


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Post #54 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:00 am 
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This game was played in March 2018, and aired through Baduk TV( a cable channel devoted to Go in South Korea) on August, which I watched the entire game. They were competing to be one of 8 ( quarter final). According to the commentators, their rank was in Tygem 6d.


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Post #55 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:20 am 
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deungsan wrote:
This game was played in March 2018, and aired through Baduk TV( a cable channel devoted to Go in South Korea) on August, which I watched the entire game. They were competing to be one of 8 ( quarter final). According to the commentators, their rank was in Tygem 6d.

Did the Korean boy receive a handicap? Was there a komi?

According to Sensei's Library, a Tygem 6d corresponds to a Korean amateur 2d, a Chinese 4d, a Japanese 5d, or an European 3d. A Tygem 6d would be around 4d on IGS or 5d on KGS.

If it was an even game, then all I can say is that Sumire's promotion looks more and more like a lousy idea, a publicity stunt.

Why would the adults do this to a little girl?

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Post #56 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:48 am 
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Yes, Sumire is probably not that strong, even compared to other new Japanese pros, no surprise about that. I wouldn't expect otherwise. But as a 9 year old playing Go for 5(?) years she is probably a fair bit stronger than when she was an 8 year old in March 2018 having played Go for 4(?) years. She was 30 kyu just a few years before that, kids improve fast. Even Ke Jie toiled away as an unknown low dan pro through his teenage years building up his strength, and only started turning heads when a 4p aged 15, which is 6 more than 9. Yang Dingxin was mentioned as turning pro in China very young (9), 11 years later he's now playing in his first international final. A talented little kid with good prospects is one thing, expecting them to already be a mid-level pro is unreasonable; this is real life, not Hikaru no Go.


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Post #57 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:20 am 
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If it was an even game, then all I can say is that Sumire's promotion looks more and more like a lousy idea, a publicity stunt.


This game was played 9 months before Sumire achieved a jigo (even, taking komi) against a top pro, Cho U.

9 months represents about 15% of her entire playing career, and I'd wager that she was working very much harder then ever in those last 9 months. So, in her case, a massive improvement after the Tygem game is not really surprising. I think, also, that for people of limited experience (of any age) we must expect a lot of deep blips as they encounter new experiences, and the recent Ch'oe Cheong game may come under that category.

I'm also chary about calling it a publicity stunt in a country where face is all important. To be sure, officials, politicians, journalists, fans and all the rest of them will relish the publicity spin-off, but labelling it a stunt is way off the mark, in my view.

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Why would the adults do this to a little girl?


I don't know, and my instinct is to recoil, too. But the fact that she's a girl is surely seen as irrelevant nowadays. So that leaves us with just "little" (=young?). Well, Go Seigen was brought to Japan at 14 (and given 3-dan at once - a publicity stunt?). He was significantly older but was forced to live in a foreign country where he didn't know the language, didn't like the food, had no friends, and was racially abused in public. Oh, and he had his whole family to support since his father had died. I'd have recoiled at that, too, but you could argue that he turned out fine (though he did have a weird religious phase which I suspect had to do with his upbringing).

Nowadays, many people who reach the top in many professions have started very young and been subjected to intense training, with apparently few ill effects. And what about Mozart? I have also met some people who had that kind of talent and went through that kind of training, only to decide that that life was not for them. But rather than resent it, or going loopy, they have told me it was a fantastic foundation for whatever it was they really wanted to do in life.

There must be casualties, but is life not a competition anyway?


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Post #58 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:33 am 
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In Yamashita Keigo's book Breakthrough Attacking Power Yamashita Style there is a section on his life story. One chapter is called A Big Crybaby in the Final and it describes a third grade Yamashita losing the Boys and Girls National Go Tournament final, which was broadcast on NHK from the Nihon Kiin.

From the book: "From the moment that his loss was decided, big drops of tears fell from his eyes and he had not even completely stopped crying by the time of the awards ceremony."

He even includes a picture of himself crying on national TV at the Go board, which you can see if you buy the book.

But to the point, he turned out OK. Let kids be kids and let's not write them off for getting emotional in such situations.

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Post #59 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:17 pm 
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TheCannyOnion wrote:
deungsan wrote:
This game was played in March 2018, and aired through Baduk TV( a cable channel devoted to Go in South Korea) on August, which I watched the entire game. They were competing to be one of 8 ( quarter final). According to the commentators, their rank was in Tygem 6d.

Did the Korean boy receive a handicap? Was there a komi?


===> The opponent was at the same rank as Sumire so it was an even game with komi 6.5.

TheCannyOnion wrote:
According to Sensei's Library, a Tygem 6d corresponds to a Korean amateur 2d, a Chinese 4d, a Japanese 5d, or an European 3d. A Tygem 6d would be around 4d on IGS or 5d on KGS.

===> 'dan' is just a number to put players in order according to their 'relative' strength.
TheCannyOnion wrote:
If it was an even game, then all I can say is that Sumire's promotion looks more and more like a lousy idea, a publicity stunt.

===> In my opinion, she deserve being a pro.
1. She has been making great efforts and time in go since she was 3.
2. She is stronger than other great players like Lee Sedol, Lee Changho, Choi jung... when they were at her age.
3. She seems to have so much drive to winning as she cries when she lose.
4. A case in Korea was successful, for instance, Shin jinseo, one of top players right now, was promoted without insei competition.
TheCannyOnion wrote:
Why would the adults do this to a little girl?

===> There is always a winner and loser in a go game. Losing a game could be big to her but a part process she overcome to be grown up.

Interest and resources in go in Korea and ,maybe, Japan are getting smaller and smaller so I believe Go people may want to more public attention and invest to go and take advantage of what a little girl brings into the public - hope.


Last edited by Uberdude on Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #60 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:09 pm 
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I don't know who is the bigger crybaby - this 8 years old from one year ago, or the grown ups who make such a big deal out of this video :-)

Cho Chikun is known for crying sometimes, when he lost important title games. One such case is described here: https://senseis.xmp.net/?ChoChikun but there are others too...

Another one I read in Go World recently: after the 7th game of the Meijin title from 1985, Kobayashi Koichi commented "Cho started crying after I played this invasion" (the invasion ruined Cho's last hope to win the game, and therefore the match).

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