Review Request 8k-9k

00Noles · Post by **00Noles** » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:20 am

@EdLee

Leela actually likes D-6 best with 51,47% winrate for White, making it the only local move it likes better then O-3 (51,23%). The value for D-7 is 51,19% and for C-7 it is 48,58%.
This is Leela.11 though.. i always failed to setup GRP with LeelaZero probably

I think initially i was expecting something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ :w4: may also be on the marked spots $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . C C C . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . C C 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It seems to me, that B's possible follow ups on the left are not too dangerous for W, or am i mistaken

Regarding C-7 VS D-7 i like D-7 a little more. Maybe it's just because C-7, C-9 and C-12 all being low looks a bit odd, i don't know. Nevertheless i get what you mean by jumping ahead of B

Hades12 · Post by **Hades12** » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:10 am

00Noles wrote:@EdLee

Leela actually likes D-6 best with 51,47% winrate for White, making it the only local move it likes better then O-3 (51,23%). The value for D-7 is 51,19% and for C-7 it is 48,58%.
This is Leela.11 though.. i always failed to setup GRP with LeelaZero probably

I think initially i was expecting something like this:

$$ :w4: may also be on the marked spots
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . C C C . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . C C 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ :w4: may also be on the marked spots $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . C C C . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . C C 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
It seems to me, that B's possible follow ups on the left are not too dangerous for W, or am i mistaken

Regarding C-7 VS D-7 i like D-7 a little more. Maybe it's just because C-7, C-9 and C-12 all being low looks a bit odd, i don't know. Nevertheless i get what you mean by jumping ahead of B

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ :w4: may also be on the marked spots $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The marked black stone is pretty severe. As is the attachment on top. I would play the attachment on top, as it invokes a lot of aji. But attaching inside is probably more simple

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ :b4: may also be on the marked spots $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It looks like white can resist. But black will get something.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ :b4: may also be on the marked spots $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X b O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Seems like 'a' and 'b' are miai for black. If white wants to play 'b' then it affords black to take the corner. If white plays 'a' then black can try to live inside. Might not work. Either way, black doesn't do this immediately. He has to time it properly. This is a later middle game sequence. I'm sure Uber or Ed or Bill can expand on this.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:48 am

Hi Noles,

This is a good example of when I reply, "The bot is a very powerful tool; but play what you understand and can handle."

Re: Hades' variation:

$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Nevertheless i get what you mean by jumping ahead of B

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

C7, C9 and C12 all being low looks a bit odd

C12, C9, and C7 all on the 3rd line doesn't bother me on this board, but C9 and C7 are too close and over-concentrated ( re: Bill's D7 ); I would've played C9 at C8 originally ( the bot liked D8 for

as you found out ). I'm eyeing the aji of B's shape around E5.

00Noles · Post by **00Noles** » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:12 pm

Regarding C-8 i think i would probably have replied with the diagonal at C-7, but i guess the dropdown by B is not very enjoyable for W..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If B attaches on top, W extending to C-10 might not be a good idea, as the dropdown seems even stronger now

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . C 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Extending back seems quite ok to me tough. If B hanes, W counterhanes. There might be trouble with the aji from the top left corner joseki, but i can not find a sequence right now that really threatens W's stones, but that might just be my insufficiency

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or would you on a more general note say, that all that trouble on the left side is in fact not worth W's stone on the bottom side?

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:27 pm

00Noles wrote:...

$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
...

As I noted earlier, you are being too submissive. If black over-extends, you cut him off:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ You have the ladder breaker $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:26 pm

Black cutting you with 3 is the sort of thing you should worry about (note if 2 is at 4 then when black at 5 it reverts). If 6 at 9 there's another ladder/capture miai building.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 0 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 9 O 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 1 2 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 4 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It's only because of the marked white stone that white can safely hane at 12, thus preventing black's miai of a or b ladder.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O O b . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But the aji is really bad, e.g. if black gets a stone at g7 then f9 net would work. Also black could try starting at b14 or c11 to make a combo where c8 works better.

Also if white submissively answers like this, some people were talking about how b's shape is weak at e5. But the trouble is 1-2 is already a good exchange (outside for inside) so if you just crudely push and cut black is happy to sacrifice and push from the outside to develop a much bigger area than the measly ~10 points you get from capturing 1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 0 a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 6 7 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

00Noles · Post by **00Noles** » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:11 am

@uberdude

You mean, after

W could just tenuki, because B's position in the lower left is not strong enough to take away W's corner?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b C 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . Y . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If B comes in at A or B, White just cuts accordingly? Also, as Joaz pointed out the knights move at E-6 is still cuttable, too

Maybe i should dare to be more fierce in my games

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:17 pm

No, I wasn't suggesting tenuki after 23, it's pretty severe when black comes in (though you probably won't die, just black will trash your left side). My point was the reasoning "it's ok to patiently defend at c7 because I can still push and cut off e6 later so e6 didn't gain that much" is faulty logic, because pushing and cutting e6 doesn't mean black didn't get much: he gets a lot of useful forcing moves on the outside by sacrificing e6 (white can't easily tenuki the pushes because then f9 hane is super painful, thanks to e6). Instead of c7 though answering 23 at d8 looks better. c7 is a move you might see in joseki books when white's group ends at c9, in which case d8 answer might leave some problems like c11 checking extension being annoying whilst c7 doesn't, but with the support of c12 etc above white can try to play slightly bigger and not so flat all on 3rd line.

rhwocns · Post by **rhwocns** » Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:47 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . | $$ | X X X X O X X X X X O O O X X X X X X | $$ | X X O O O O X O X X X O O O O O O X X | $$ | X O . . . . . O X X X X O O O O O O X | $$ | O O . . . . . O O X X X O O O O . . O | $$ | O O . . . . . O X X X X O X O O . . O | $$ | O O . . . . . O X X X X O X X O . . O | $$ | . . . O O X O O X O O O X X O O . . O | $$ | . . . O O X O X O O O X . X O O . . O | $$ | . . . X X X X X O X X X . . X O O O O | $$ | . O . O X X X X O O O X . X X X X O O | $$ | . . . X X X X O O O O X X . . . . X X | $$ | . . . O X O X O O O O O X . X X . X X | $$ | . . . O X O O O O O O O X . . . . X X | $$ | O O O X X X O O O O O O X O X X X O X | $$ | X X O X X X X O O X X X X O X O O O O | $$ | X . . . . . X . . . . . X O O O . . . | $$ | X . . . . . X . . . . . X X O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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