I would rather let the mistake be D9, because its easy to treat light. I'm also wondering oso, is this one of your games? Fuseki Problem
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Aphelion
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Well, yea, D9 does look like a mistake. However, if you look at this diagram (which is the closest I could make it to a reasonable seeming order of moves), Black made two very bad but urgent moves, but White tenukied to both of them, so White has made at least one mistake. Hence my comment about it being a ddk game I would rather let the mistake be D9, because its easy to treat light. I'm also wondering oso, is this one of your games?
I would rather let the mistake be D9, because its easy to treat light. I'm also wondering oso, is this one of your games? -
Magicwand
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Aphelion wrote:Well, yea, D9 does look like a mistake. However, if you look at this diagram (which is the closest I could make it to a reasonable seeming order of moves), Black made two very bad but urgent moves, but White tenukied to both of them, so White has made at least one mistake. Hence my comment about it being a ddk game
is unusual but i might play that depends on my mood.
is ddk ish
is sdk ish
is tdk ish
is qdk ish edit: maybe i streach this a liitle but..still it is a bad move."The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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oso
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Ah. Sorry. I should have posted all the number of moves from the beginning.
No, this isn't one of my games. It's a game from an e-book I downloaded a long time ago. Can't remember where. All I have is the fuseki.
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Every move after 3 is wrong, some being horribly so.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
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My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com
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amnal
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Re: Fuseki Problem
oso wrote:
Ah. Sorry. I should have posted all the number of moves from the beginning.
No, this isn't one of my games. It's a game from an e-book I downloaded a long time ago. Can't remember where. All I have is the fuseki.
4: Bad. This invites black C3 or D4, at which point white's stone has become weak and black has made territory - so white's move has forced white to get strong. This kind of underneath shoulder hit is usually bad, for exactly this reason.
5: Bad. If black wants to go this way, D4 is a harsh way to punish white for making a bad shape. C3 is an easy way to take territory.
6: Bad. Black C3 now leaves the D3 stone completely wasted, and white without a base. C3 seems essential for white to make good shape, and leaves black with bad aji if white plays C6.
7: Bad. C3 is a vital poitn for both groups in that corner, and sente for both against the other. It is a vital fuseki point.
8: Bad, because black C3 makes his group strong and makes white's group weak. Although it is an extension from the upper left, it seems to not address white's main problems.
9: Bad. This underneath shoulder hit invites white C9, black D8 and white E8 to seal black in strongly (there are other variations, but submissive). Because the shape is too bad for black, he should rarely want to play this kind of move, just like white D3 was wrong earlier. Black C3 still seems like the vital shape point - it is still important for the safety of two competing groups.
10: Bad. This ignores C3 and C9, both of which are very big shape points. I think C3 is the more important, because then black must crawl and the D9 stone is light.
11: (Assuming this is the intent of the marked stone), bad, because black has two big problems in the bottom left. I think he should solve them, probably with C3 to leave white in bad shape on the bottom.
This is a good example of a lower level opening where something important is overlooked which could give one player an early massive advantage. There is some great stuff to learn from it, if you can understand why both players' moves were bad, but it is a funny opening problem.
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Magicwand
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Re: Fuseki Problem
i didnt read all your comment but... only choice for
is as below IMO."The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Aphelion
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Re: Fuseki Problem
The move order isn't part of the problem, its pulled out of my rear end That said, I think I tried to make it as reasonable as possible. The very position itself indicates that something weird happened.
As I mentioned before, I think C3 is bigger than C9 because C3 concerns a group, whereas C9 only concerns a lone stone that can be treated light. Strengthening the bottom with C3 also makes P3 looks much better.
That said, I think I tried to make it as reasonable as possible. The very position itself indicates that something weird happened.As I mentioned before, I think C3 is bigger than C9 because C3 concerns a group, whereas C9 only concerns a lone stone that can be treated light. Strengthening the bottom with C3 also makes P3 looks much better.
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amnal
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Aphelion wrote:The move order isn't part of the problem, its pulled out of my rear end
As I mentioned before, I think C3 is bigger than C9 because C3 concerns a group, whereas C9 only concerns a lone stone that can be treated light. Strengthening the bottom with C3 also makes P3 looks much better.
The comments are on the move order that oso has given from the game source - which, to be honest, are even stranger (and worse
) than your suggestions 
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Aphelion
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Oops, I just saw it. Wow. I feel like I've been transported to bizarro world. Oso, could you possibly upload the ebook (if its not against copyright) or at least give us the title and author? I have a feeling it might not be the best education material...
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Close enough...
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.
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Numsgil
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Magicwand wrote:
i didnt read all your comment but... only choice for
Yeah, that's rather urgent, too. It makes a good bit of sense, too, since you make the white corner group strong in addition to weakening black's group. So actually, thinking about it again, it makes more sense to do 10 (or 12) here and sacrifice the lone white stone at 8.
But if we assume from the 8/9 exchange that both players are fine with the health of their corner, having played 8, white should respond after black 9. It's not even a matter of reading; it's just "basic instinct". If you get touched you respond. By the time we get to move 10 we have too many fires to put out, so the whole problem is a bit sour, but it's so easy to fix the 8/9 exchange mistake that I wanted to specifically point it out.
This is actually an interesting problem just because there are so many mistakes that it's easy to get overwhelmed and hard to structure constructive thoughts about it. Every move that fixes one problem leaves another gaping hole elsewhere. You have to identify several areas of weakness and apply triage to figure out which is the most important.
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Aphelion
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Its even more basic instinct that White 6 should be at c3. This why this problem is so counter intuitive, this should never happen in a real game.
Also, you can think of as a shoulder hit, so its still acceptable .
Also, you can think of
as a shoulder hit, so its still acceptable .-
topazg
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Aphelion wrote:Its even more basic instinct that White 6 should be at c3. This why this problem is so counter intuitive, this should never happen in a real game.
Also, you can think of
And of course, it's unacceptable that Black ignored it, so White should C10
It's a cruel problem when two fundamental must play basic instinct moves are screaming on the board at the same time. I'm beginning to prefer C3 too I think. I still think White's two stones can be seriously attacked in the top left and cut completely apart, but I also think White can't afford Black to wedge the bottom now he's approached the lower right. It's an all round disaster for White whichever way you look at it I think. Black too
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Aphelion
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Re: Fuseki Problem
Topazg:
If it makes you feel better, you can think of it like in this joseki where White can tenuki:
Its a bit of a stretch, but you could call it a very poorly timed reduction
. I don't see the danger you are talking about on the top though, as far as I can see White should easily get sente to fix it.
If it makes you feel better, you can think of it like in this joseki where White can tenuki:
Its a bit of a stretch, but you could call it a very poorly timed reduction
. I don't see the danger you are talking about on the top though, as far as I can see White should easily get sente to fix it.