Samsung cup main tournament starts.

[Adrian Ghioc]

Where is Qiu Jun?

Home. Drinking a beer and thinking of you

P.S. He lost to Wang Tao in the preliminaries

[iazzi]

To clear up some confusion among discussion;

In Samsung Cup preliminary tournament, there were 28 players from Japan participating. And only 2 players passed and joined main tournament.

Far from clarifying, it seems confusing: there were >60 players from china and >110 from Korea. While I can imagine top Japanese players focusing on the more remunerative national title games, I cannot understand why other players would choose not to participate...

(and, as noted above, only seeds are participating from Japan: japanese preliminaries were totally unsuccessful)

I am not sure if the Samsung follows the same format, but for many tournaments, the number of seeds is based on past performance. So the underrepresentation is not exactly unfair. It would still have the bad effect of making results "sticky"--if your strength is equal, but you only had two representatives because of past performance, it would take a long time for things to rebalance themselves.

This would explain it.

Actually, even if the japanese representative were the same level of other countries they would have less probability of winning. So they can only raise their participation ratio if they become much stronger than other countries, unless the "performance" is evaluated against the expectation (unlikely). If every game has a 50% probability of going either way the chance of a japanese passing the preliminaries was likely around 50% as well (did not do the exact calculation only an estimate). The chance of a top three is negligible. And I did not see any current or past top title holder in the preliminaries apart from O Rissei.

[hyperpape]

To clear up some confusion among discussion;

In Samsung Cup preliminary tournament, there were 28 players from Japan participating. And only 2 players passed and joined main tournament.

Far from clarifying, it seems confusing: there were >60 players from china and >110 from Korea. While I can imagine top Japanese players focusing on the more remunerative national title games, I cannot understand why other players would choose not to participate...

If Japanese tournaments pay better than their Korean and Chinese counterparts, it's a higher opportunity cost to compete in preliminaries.

And if you're at a competitive disadvantage, your chance of making money is even smaller.

Actually, even if the japanese representative were the same level of other countries they would have less probability of winning. So they can only raise their participation ratio if they become much stronger than other countries, unless the "performance" is evaluated against the expectation (unlikely). If every game has a 50% probability of going either way the chance of a japanese passing the preliminaries was likely around 50% as well (did not do the exact calculation only an estimate). The chance of a top three is negligible. And I did not see any current or past top title holder in the preliminaries apart from O Rissei.

Several long technical digressions could happen here. I was simplifying, but actually I also think that what I said is technically true if you think about distributions of strength, rather than just "how strong the Japanese are".

[iazzi]

Several long technical digressions could happen here. I was simplifying, but actually I also think that what I said is technically true if you think about distributions of strength, rather than just "how strong the Japanese are".

I agree and suspect we would have the same opinion on any specific example, but this is becoming offtopic and to have a meaningful discussion we should know the exact rules used to assign places.

[emeraldemon]

From GoGameWorld:
"Samsung Cup is well known for flexible rules, the unique feature is its preliminary tournament, all world professional players even amateur players can participate"

From GoGoD:
"The most distinctive feature of this international event is the preliminary stage, as even overseas pros are obliged to visit Korea and pay their own expenses. Not only has this not put off top players, it has allowed many lower ranked players to acquire some international experience"

[John Fairbairn]

On the basis of numbers alone, the Koreans stand a good chance of winning the title. They have seven seeds (Yi Se-tol, Ch'oe Ch'eol-han, Pak Yeong-hun, Pak Cheong-hwan, Heo Yeong-ho, Weon Seong-chin and Kim Chi-seok). The sponsors also gave Yi Ch'ang-ho a wild card even though he lost in the preliminaries, and of course several other Koreans came through via the preliminaries.

For reference, the Chinese seeds were Gu Li, Kong Jie and Piao Wenyao. Japan had just Yuki and Sakai.

But, if I may, I will muse a little on seeding. It may be more important than weight of numbers. Being seeded makes a big reduction in the number of games required. There seems to be increasing awareness that the sheer number of games is putting a strain on players, especially the older ones, and this is closely tied to the shortening of time limits.

Japanese players did a lot of soul searching when they began to fall behind the rest of the go world. Various explanations were proferred, the favourite ones being the self-serving one that Japanese events paid better so there was little incentive to play overseas and the increasingly shortened time limits.

The time limit theory dominated for a while and Japanese time limits began to be cut. To be sure, there were other reasons in the mix, but there was much talk of the "international standard" of 3 hours so there was clearly a focus there. However, the goal posts were moved repeatedly as time limits were shortened even further in international events. So, even after practising at 3 hours, the Japanese were no nearer catching up. They did, however, refine their thinking about the problems they faced: they began to wonder whether the the faster limits required a change of style - but that would meet much more resistance than just making the playing day shorter. This appears to me to be the current state of thinking among pros in Japan.

In Korea, however, shorter time limits produced a different reaction. It led to a sharp rise in the number of teenagers winning games, which in turn led to a crisis for older players as their income dried up rapidly. Many older pros railed against Mickey Mouse limits, initially citing arguments such as a deterioration in the quality of play, but they were really voicing their concerns about their finances. Unlike in Japan, senior pros in Korea generally have no cushion (such as seeding in many events). But the dominance of sponsors seeking tv coverage and the availability of superfast telecoms in Korea meant that the frantic new style of play was unlikely to be abandoned. There have been some attempts to assuage the senior pros, but there is still tension. The time-limit issue seems more alive there than in Japan.

Recently, however, there seems to be a hardening of the view in Korea that the real problem is not short time limits per se, but too many games. At no time, as far as I can tell, has there ever been a serious suggestion that senior players see less than young players in fast games. If anything, they may be able to see more under ideal conditions. I have never heard, either, of a suggestion (as in Japan) that a different style of play is required in Korea to cope with fast games. It seems that the seniors' gripe has always been about the pressure of too many games. In other words, it appears that e.g. four games at half an hour each are much more stressful than one game at six hours. Prima facie, that seems like a tenable view, and one that is reinforced now by younger players complaining about the pressure. The not-quite-so-young-now such as Yi Ch'ang-ho and Yi Se-tol have certainly complained about pressure and its effect on their health, but it seems also that more than a few young players who burst on the scene like shooting stars have now burnt out, at least temporarily.

In the present event, Yi Ch'ang-ho had voiced concern about accepting his wild-card status. He felt it was putting him under even more pressure, and he apparently sought the advice of several other pros before accepting it. Presumably the extra pressure is to so with having to perform well to meet the sponsor's expectations. We amateurs probably have little conception of this pressure, but we can observe that in the days of Go Seigen's ten-game matches, recovery for a whole month between games was considered ideal, and in many cases the players forwent other events between games.

If the pressure of too many games is real, it is automatically more of a problem for the successful players than the duffers in a system that is still dominated by knockout tournaments. I imagine that the mini leagues now appearing in Korean tournaments, as in the Samsung, are one way of reducing the pressure (i.e. a loss need not be fatal). Seeding, of course, is an even better method. Assuming that all these developments are genuinely intertwined, the progress of the current Samsung event is interesting not just for who wins but for how go organisation may evolve in future.

BTW China is something of a halfway house between Japan and Korea. Events are generally shorter now, but not to the extremes seen in Korea, and these are generally flourishing for the same reasons as in Korea (tv and the internet). Senior players seem to lose out in the events that have many games (i.e. knockouts with many preliminaries) but where they have cosy niches, as in the weekly Weiqi League where a loss is not fatal, they seem to do well enough. In any case, they have a cushion as good as, or even better than, the senior pros have in Japan in that there are many posts as trainers, coaches, commentators, etc. Perhaps because of this balance, as far as I can detect there is not much anguished discussion about shorter time limits in China.

[Adrian Ghioc]

Yi Ch'ang-ho had voiced concern about accepting his wild-card status

This is a very important piece of info. Thank you very much for it, Mr. Fairbairn

[trout]

Li Zhe defeated Piao Wenyao by resign.
Kim Jiseok defeated Kang Dongyun by resign.
Sun Li defeated Jiang Zhujiu by resign.
Li Xuanhao defeated Yuki Satoshi by resign.
Chen Yaoe defeated Park Junghwan by resign.
Kim Junghyun defeated Lee Sedol by resign.
Heo Youngho defeated Park Jieun by resign.
Guo Wenchao defeated Song Ronghui by resign.
Park Younghun defeated Sakai Hideyuki by resign.
Na Hyun defeated Kim Dongho by resign.
Kong Jie defeated Peng Liyao by resign.
Jeon Youngkyu defeated Baek Sungho by resign.
Kang Sungmin defeated Choe Chulhan by resign.
Gu Li defeated Lee Youngku by 1.5.
Won Sungjin defeated Wang Tao by resign.
Tan Xiao defeated Lee Changho by resign.

Anyone who had 2 wins advances to next round.
Anyone with 1 win and 1 loss will face each other and winner will advances to next round.
Anyone with 2 losses will be out of tournament.

This is double elimination round.

[lovely]

Lee Changho and Sedol both lost to young guns

Yuki has a really bad record against young Chinese pros, doesn't he?

[jswm]

I hope China Weiqi league extend to NE Asia Baduk/Go/Weiqi league, and cut a few commercial cups but give more money award. It will help young players and encourage top players to pay more attention into cup competitions.

[Magicwand]

I hope China Weiqi league extend to NE Asia Baduk/Go/Weiqi league, and cut a few commercial cups but give more money award. It will help young players and encourage top players to pay more attention into cup competitions.

more money to top few???
that is not an answer to the problem.
more chances mean that money will be distributed evenly to more players which is better.

[jswm]

I hope China Weiqi league extend to NE Asia Baduk/Go/Weiqi league, and cut a few commercial cups but give more money award. It will help young players and encourage top players to pay more attention into cup competitions.

more money to top few???
that is not an answer to the problem.
more chances mean that money will be distributed evenly to more players which is better.

League ensure dozens of players have a good life, this is your said distribute evenly. The biggest beneficiary of league is hopeful young players, league gives them enough chance to improve.
I mean cut a few commercial cups, then increase money award of the remaining ones. Some top players strategical give up some cups now.

[trout]

Lee Sedol defeated Jeon Youngkyu by resign.
Chen Yaoe defeated Piao Wenyao by resign.
Peng Liyao defeated Kang Sungmin by resign.
Lee Changho defeated Sun Li by resign.
Li Xuanhao defeated Wang Tao by 1.5.
Guo Wenchao defeated Kang Dongyun by resign.
Lee Youngku defeated Heo Youngho by resign.
Na Hyun defeated Sakai Hideyuki by .5.

Winner advances to 2nd round.

http://igokisen.web.fc2.com/wr/sc.html


2nd round will be held 10/4/11-10/5/11.
Semi final - 10/31/11, 11/2/11 and 11/3/11
Final - 12/5/11 - 12/7/11

See you in October.

[trout]

After finishing 1st round, winners draw seating for 2nd round.

2nd round:



Lee Changho vs Gu Li
Park Younghun vs Guo Wenchao
Lee Youngkku vs Tan Xiao
Kim Junghyun vs Chen Yaoe
Lee SeDol vs Kong Jie
Won Sungjin vs Li Xuanhao
Kim Jiseok vs Li Zhe
Na Hyun vs Peng Liyao

[lovely]

Quite interesting how each match-up is Korea v.s. China.

I think whoever wins the Kim Jiseok - Li Zhe match will win the whole thing.