34. Magicwand (3d) vs. Kirby (1d)

Post Reply
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm104 Move 104 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . B O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Well, I was a bit wrong. I don't think I can get sente with my last move. It's OK, though, because this move takes away some of white's points.

I was hoping that I might get sente because of something like the following:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O 2 3 . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O 1 O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X 5 6 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X 4 8 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
... but it doesn't seem to work out with the current board positions - my cutting stones don't have enough liberties, especially since we didn't do the 1-3 exchange, above...


I could consider tenuki-ing... There may be a way to live if I tenuki. But the problem is that white has sente to cut off my stone and grab a lot of points. There's probably more than 10 points that he can get here in sente if I tenuki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . 2 X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . 1 O . x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O x X x x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O x x x x O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O x x x O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Furthermore, the move I played still allows for me to play around with the aji later, and possibly get more points.

I predict black will attack the bottom left corner now.
@shultz
Hi, shultz. I'm glad to see that there's somebody watching our game :) I think that E2 was a bad move, especially looking at it now since it really did more for Magicwand than it did for me. My idea in playing E2 to begin with was to grab corner territory. But it still leaves aji for white to exploit. Additionally, I basically solidified white's territory on the bottom with the move.

Now that the excitement has died down on the right side of the board, and when I'm looking at counting points and places to move, I wish that the corner was more solid. It makes me regret playing it a lot.

If I get the chance - and I don't think that I will - I would like to play E3 to help the corner more. But that means playing two moves to do what I could have done with one earlier.

I think I played E3 at the time because I thought it'd definitely be sente. The problem I'm seeing now is that it doesn't seem to be sente that I wanted to exploit.
be immersed
Top
User avatar
Magicwand
Tengen
Posts: 4844
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 504 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm105 Move 105 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
Top
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm106 Move 106 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Normally, I would pincer this stone. But I don't want to fight and complicate the game. White has a great wall of power in the center. I need to get points.

If I pincer, I have a feeling he will counter pincer, and I don't like that:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . 7 X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X 6 . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O 4 5 . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . 2 , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I can pincer further away, but white can easily counter pincer later. It will be safe for him because he has so much power in the center.

I could try to grab more territory on the top, but white can make a good position on the side:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 1 . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't like this.

The move I played is not severe on white, so I suspect it may be criticized. But I cannot think of a way to make a more severe move work safely... So I will not play that way for now.

I'd be very interested in learning a better way to handle this board position. I wonder if other people think that I should put more pressure on white. What do you think? I'm interested to know.
be immersed
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 106 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:b1: is better, IMO. It is true that White's thickness speaks against a severe attack. However, letting White have an easy two space extension is too lax. This pincer restricts White to an extension to "a". Also, if White now invades at "b", Black has room to extend to "a". Then neither invasion will have a base, but Black will. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
User avatar
prokofiev
Lives with ko
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:03 pm
Rank: decent sdk
GD Posts: 138
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by prokofiev »

Bill Spight wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 106 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:b1: is better, IMO. It is true that White's thickness speaks against a severe attack. However, letting White have an easy two space extension is too lax. This pincer restricts White to an extension to "a". Also, if White now invades at "b", Black has room to extend to "a". Then neither invasion will have a base, but Black will. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 106 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 3 . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This way Black "gets the last (big) move" though. How much does this matter?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 106 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . 4 . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , 3 . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Is white okay here after taking the big move on the top? (Maybe 3 isn't best, but substitute some similar move if you prefer.)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 106 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . 3 . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . 1 , 5 . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 6 . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This way there's a fight.
Top
User avatar
Magicwand
Tengen
Posts: 4844
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 504 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm106 Move 106 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
i played useless moves and lost many points on right but i think i am still up
i have more ko threats on right so i will try to invade the lower left corner and create ko when the time is right.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
Top
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Kirby »

I forgot that today was my wedding anniversary. I found out after my wife told me when I got home from work today :roll: I have to do some stuff with my wife! I'll make a move a bit later today.
be immersed
Top
ketchup
Lives with ko
Posts: 263
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:48 pm
Rank: Eternal 10k
GD Posts: 188
Has thanked: 127 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by ketchup »

For observers mostly, and for players after game is over.
Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm105 Move 105 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This should be white's resign move. This game way too one sided, especially when white is not reading seriously enough for this game. Agree? Disagree?

I think magicwand is just not taking this as seriously as kirby. No matter what variation white follows here, none of them have a good enough follow-up to make use of his k16 wall, in my(flawed?) opinion
I know nothing.
Top
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm108 Move 108 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . B . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The basic reason I want to play this move is to prevent white from playing in the same spot. My bottom left corner can be exploited, I think, but it is too slow to play there and defend right now.

For example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . 2 . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . 1 O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
:b1: in the diagram above secures the corner more, but I think :w2: is more valuable. It puts pressure on my top left enclosure, and works decently with his wall. Maybe it's a little bit close to his wall, but I can't afford to let him get a lot of points.

I considered playing an attacking move against white's base such as here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , B . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
but I don't see a huge benefit that I can get from the attack, since white has a lot of influence in the area already.

I could also try to exploit the bottom:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . B . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
but white is basically safe.

So that's why I decided to take a big point at the top.

1.) It prevents white from playing there.
2.) It helps my corner enclosure to be stronger.
3.) It gains me points.
4.) It makes me slightly stronger if I ever did want to attack his two stone base on the left (which seems rather unlikely, I think).


My first choice for a top-side move was not the move I played, though. I first wanted to play a two-space extension... But I think it is too close to his wall. I don't particularly like the following sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Diagram Kirb
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 3 4 . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X 6 2 1 . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X . 9 8 5 . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O 1 . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X . X O X . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , 2 . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
but it was the best response I could really think of to :w2: and :w4: from "Diagram Kirb". If I don't atari at :b5: in "Diagram Kirb", white can cut off my stones, unless white does the following, which I also don't like:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 4 9 . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . 2 1 7 . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . 8 6 . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , 0 . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I can still get in at "a", but I feel like white has some possibilities for making sizable territory with his wall.

So, I think that the very basic one space jump seems safer. It's not too close to his wall. It still prevents white from extending nicely. It still grabs points. And it helps me for basically the same reasons as the two point jump did - it just doesn't grab quite as many points right now. But later, I could do a knight's move, for example. I think it's an OK move.
be immersed
Top
User avatar
Magicwand
Tengen
Posts: 4844
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 am
Rank: Wbaduk 7D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: magicwand
Tygem: magicwand
Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 504 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm109 Move 109 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . W . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
if i was black i would have protected this corner. what he played is very small.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
Top
User avatar
Jedo
Lives in gote
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:30 am
Rank: 2D KGS
GD Posts: 0
Location: NY
Has thanked: 123 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Jedo »

ketchup wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm105 Move 105 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This should be white's resign move. This game way too one sided, especially when white is not reading seriously enough for this game. Agree? Disagree?

I think magicwand is just not taking this as seriously as kirby. No matter what variation white follows here, none of them have a good enough follow-up to make use of his k16 wall, in my(flawed?) opinion
I think it is much too early for a resignation here. The right half of the board is basically a wash, and white has a ton of thickness towards the left side. Given that it's a handicap game, it seems reasonable to play on.
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
Top
User avatar
Aphelion
Lives in sente
Posts: 766
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:14 pm
Rank: KGS 4 kyu
GD Posts: 227
KGS: Aphelion02
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 59 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Aphelion »

I don't know about the effectiveness in terms of winning the game, but I can never bring myself to play the last two moves Kirby just did. They just feel so submissive and fearful...I think he could at least have went 1 space longer with both those extensions.

However, I am several stones weaker than him and I can't count, so maybe its my own judgement at issue here.
Top
User avatar
quantumf
Lives in sente
Posts: 844
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:36 pm
Rank: 3d
GD Posts: 422
KGS: komi
Has thanked: 180 times
Been thanked: 151 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by quantumf »

Aphelion wrote:
I don't know about the effectiveness in terms of winning the game, but I can never bring myself to play the last two moves Kirby just did. They just feel so submissive and fearful...I think he could at least have went 1 space longer with both those extensions.

However, I am several stones weaker than him and I can't count, so maybe its my own judgement at issue here.
I don't know about that - black is ahead on the board, the only chance for white is to use that wall in the middle to either attack, or make territory directly. By playing the way Kirby has, black has now eliminated any way for white to use what is a formidable wall, and now has three ways to neutralize any territory the wall might aim for (strong groups on the left, top and poking out from the center at J6). I can't see white getting more than 10-15 points from the central strength. Having said that, black will have to be careful about continuing to be so submissive, the game could slip away if he keeps backing down.
Top
User avatar
Joaz Banbeck
Judan
Posts: 5546
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Location: Banbeck Vale
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 1434 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Aphelion wrote:I don't know about the effectiveness in terms of winning the game, but I can never bring myself to play the last two moves Kirby just did. They just feel so submissive and fearful...I think he could at least have went 1 space longer with both those extensions.
Kirby's latest does have a underlying point to it. In his comments, he shows that if black plays the two-space extension at H17, white could build strength around G16/F15. He didn't say why this was important.
But look at what happens to white when black pushes through at L12.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: 34. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 2

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm110 Move 110 - Prisoners: B=3, W=1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . B X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Well, this hurts me a bit in the balance of points. I thought he would attack the bottom left a bit sooner, but it still hurts. This is another reason why I think that E2 was a really bad move.

I can't read out a way to kill white. If I resist in other ways, it doesn't seem to work, and perhaps even puts me into danger.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . 5 X a . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . 4 6 7 . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . W 1 . O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . . 2 3 X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
For example, above, the cutting point at "a" is pretty dangerous for me. White takes my points, and it's not a great result.

Or I could do:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . O X X . O O O X . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , O O X X X X . . X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . X X O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O X O . O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . O O X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . X . X . , X O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . O |
$$ | . 5 X a . . . . . X . X X O . . . O . |
$$ | . 4 6 7 . O . . . O X O O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O O . . X . O X . X |
$$ | . . W . 1 O . . . . . . X O O O X X . |
$$ | . 8 . 2 X O . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
and the cutting point is still dangerous.

I can't really think of a way to kill white. It could exist, but I can't seem to figure it out.

So I played the move I did. It is unfortunate that he gets more points and I get fewer, but I think that I am still ahead. I think that I can still win this game.

I think the score is kind of close in terms of territory. Maybe I have around 50 or 55, and he has around 45 or 50. That's my rough estimate. So it's still anybody's game. I will try to make it mine, though.
be immersed
Top
Post Reply

Return to “1-on-1 Malkovich games”