what is the ASR doing wrong?

[Oceandrop]

I understand your point, but just look at Class Gamma I, there is one player (first place) who won all his games (20 so far) and the third place lost all his games 28 games, yes active, and nothing wrong with losing, I would sure also just lose in Gamma at this point, because I'm not yet good enough, but the problem is he will increase to beta next month, but how should one improve if only fighting better players and being rewardet for it, yes they probably will review his games and help him nothing wrong with that either, but if I would be a better player I would find it a bit exhausting jut to play against much much weaker player who just got into beta because they played a lot more, so in the end maybe this hurts the ASR more, it just seems unfair against someone who example don't have lot of time, or life in a different time zone but try to be active and winning 9 games, but don't get to beta. In my opinion this system rewards weaker player more then stronger, so in the end many strong players maybe will get exhausted to not have a challenge because the other strong players life in different time zones and can't be so active or just have not so much freetime like weaker player because theyre younger or whatever.

But maybe I'm wrong, I would be glad if someone points this out, because I like the ASR and I think it have great potential and maybe I just don't get it. It just seems unfair from my point of view yet, both for the stronger player and the weaker because I don't think you can really improve if you >just< play stronger opponnents.

Edit: Mh I thought over it and yes maybe this would not be better then your system now, but the system seems also not do be perfect yet.. or? Maybe we could think of a better system, but it's hard because it will get more complicated and I can't think of a simple solution and maybe it is also good as it is.

[RBerenguel]

I don't see why playing a weaker player should be exhausting at all, if anything it should be less tiring. If people don't want to help others improve they should not be playing in a league focused on improvement

[Oceandrop]

Yes, I think you're right, but I still think the system could be better/could be improved mh.

[RBerenguel]

Depends on what youthink is improved. For me, being in the ASR is my mean to improve my play. If I can't get to Gamma or even Beta, I can't play that many strong players, and then I have it harder to improve. What is the point of getting ahead if winning/losing means something? Without any encouragement for trying new things I would be as well playing free games with automatch.

[Oceandrop]

Yes, maybe the system is not the point and it's alright like it is.

But now I read through the thread and it seems many join to have a community which is a bit more serious about improving, teaching, helping.. so what about like make a Beginner class? Like teaching the basics there, and everyone who is "weak" like new to the game or just can't improve by just playing and reviewing can join, and 1 day per weak the Teacher prepares a class, like .sgf file etc. and teach the basics like compound shapes or so? So:

Create a Beginner class inside the league, all who want(?) may join, but maximal like 12-20 persons and teacher ask them about when online and make a excel sheet maybe, and then the teacher prepares a class like .sgf file with branches already etc. and teaches the class once per week or month some principales, maybe also look at some games from his students and select one or two as examples? After "class" he give them some I don't know homework .sgf files with problems? Dunno, maybe the Idea itself is already stupid and we don't have to talk about what to do And yea the Students could ask their teacher about problems or situations they met in games? Maybe that would be a lot of work so I dunno, maybe more then one teacher per class or hope that the students don't come to the teacher about every small problem? Maybe this Idea is stupid or would don't find anyone who want to make this?

Also the Teacher could encourage his students to like send some games to GTL or select two-three games from his students and encourage them to review them in class together with him as supervisor? This would make a bit more community so that the people would stay and stay active maybe? And maybe give the weaker player also satisfaction.
The Beginner class should just be really weak players like 16-30k, so they would improve hurry and then when new weak players join the league they also can join the Beginner Class and the old ones a now stronger and have already improved so they can leave?

Soo your opinion? Totally absurd?

Btw maybe it would be too much like over text, but there is so many possibilitys like skype or teamspeak as alternative to text class.. but yea lets hear if I maybe should not take so many drugs or maybe this idea is interesting?

[Muone]

Yes, maybe the system is not the point and it's alright like it is.

But now I read through the thread and it seems many join to have a community which is a bit more serious about improving, teaching, helping.. so what about like make a Beginner class? Like teaching the basics there, and everyone who is "weak" like new to the game or just can't improve by just playing and reviewing can join, and 1 day per weak the Teacher prepares a class, like .sgf file etc. and teach the basics like compound shapes or so? So:

Create a Beginner class inside the league, all who want(?) may join, but maximal like 12-20 persons and teacher ask them about when online and make a excel sheet maybe, and then the teacher prepares a class like .sgf file with branches already etc. and teaches the class once per week or month some principales, maybe also look at some games from his students and select one or two as examples? After "class" he give them some I don't know homework .sgf files with problems? Dunno, maybe the Idea itself is already stupid and we don't have to talk about what to do And yea the Students could ask their teacher about problems or situations they met in games? Maybe that would be a lot of work so I dunno, maybe more then one teacher per class or hope that the students don't come to the teacher about every small problem? Maybe this Idea is stupid or would don't find anyone who want to make this?

Also the Teacher could encourage his students to like send some games to GTL or select two-three games from his students and encourage them to review them in class together with him as supervisor? This would make a bit more community so that the people would stay and stay active maybe? And maybe give the weaker player also satisfaction.
The Beginner class should just be really weak players like 16-30k, so they would improve hurry and then when new weak players join the league they also can join the Beginner Class and the old ones a now stronger and have already improved so they can leave?

Soo your opinion? Totally absurd?

Btw maybe it would be too much like over text, but there is so many possibilitys like skype or teamspeak as alternative to text class.. but yea lets hear if I maybe should not take so many drugs or maybe this idea is interesting?

Where would you find teachers that are willing to do all this for free on a regular basis? I know there are already services like this, only they are not for free.

I think the league is fine as it is now, i see it like this:

Stronger players get a chance to advance faster in the league by playing weaker players, giving the weaker player an opportunity to learn in exchange. Which i relay think is the point of the league? To motivate all the players to be active and play a lot, sharing their experiences through rewievs.

[jts]

Oceandrop, if you feel that you would benefit from having sgf files to do for homework, you can just ask here, or in one of several rooms on KGS (the ASR room, the Beginner's room, the KTL... there are also plenty of people who offer classes and teaching games in the latter two rooms), and people will be happy to point you to various resources that you can learn from. If you need someone to badger you to send games to the GTL, I'll be happy to volunteer (or, better yet, just post them on L19, in the game analysis forum).

In short, all of your ideas are very good, but they are things that novice go players can already get easily if they're just willing to ask, and things that (i) don't necessarily need to be provided in a prix fixe package, (ii) don't necessarily need to be a condition for joining the ASR league as a beginner, and (iii) they aren't necessarily best provided in the class format, with one teacher simultaneously responsible for multiple students.

[topazg]

Oceandrop, all your ideas are excellent, but as Muone said, who is going to have the time to be that teacher and spend the effort required to produce that material on a weekly basis?

[Oceandrop]

Yes you're right, after a second thought I also find the league fine as she is And hope it will continue like this

Have fun playing

Ps: by looking at the result page again I can also see that the point system isnt wrong, it's fine as it is I think

[hailthorn011]

Well, depending on the rank range of the beginner class idea that Oceandrop brought up, I'd definitely be willing to help. I suppose the bad habits of a 7k are quite a bit better than the habits of a 12k-30k. Considering I'm likely going to go into teaching as a profession, the chance to get that sort of experience would be fantastic. Plus I've already had a few semi-formal lessons with other L19 members.

This doesn't have to be a formality, though. If a weaker player were to ask me for assistance in improving, I'd definitely be willing to help. And I definitely wouldn't charge either (nowhere near strong enough, anyway. And even if I was, I wouldn't.)

[The Pilgrim]

One idea : why not authorizing cross gamma (or beta) section games ? I've been playing for 2 months and it's hard to play a game in my gamma3 (I don't know how some do to play more than 30 games !!!)

The idea is to let cross section game happen but with less point gained :
- gamma section (G1 vs G1) win match : 5 points, lose : 2 points,
- gamma cross section (G1 vs G3) win : 1 point, lose : 0,5 point

If a player is willing to play cross section games, he just have to put it in the game's name (X gamma 3 for example)

Well, just an idea of a player willing to play more games but not waiting 1 hour for having a partner

cb22

[stalkor]

I can't allow inter class playing purely on the fact that there are multiple classes for a reason which is the pyramid system. True, it can be hard to find games, but also in alpha players are struggling to find games because they have virtually played everyone in their class.

Should i make it bigger for that reason? i don't think it would help because the competition is very high!

i have made a suggestion to the ASR programmers to make a feature to enable enrollment into a league if you have met a certain set of requirements. When this feature is implemented i can make a league that lets you enter if you have played 15 or more games that month. mind you that this would be an enormous single class much like delta, but only for the very active.

im not sure if i can provide a prize for that league, it is highly up to the donations we get each month which is NOT high (although we get a lot of donations regarding teaching games, in terms of money we have barely any influx of cash which we can use for prizes or events)

[skydyr]

My immediate thought is that this might suck the life out of the other classes because all of your most active players would be in it instead. If people can't find games, it seems it would make sense to increase the class sizes and limit the number of different classes to ensure that there are enough people to play.

[stalkor]

There are plenty of opponents in each gamma class. 25 or more players is a lot of potential games and 15 games is already a very good result in the league in most classes.

Right now, around 50 players would qualify for it, and to be fair, 15 are from alpha:) i also would make rules so that the games are shorter, like 10 or 15 minutes.