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 Post subject: Re: what is the ASR doing wrong?
Post #121 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:45 am 
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Ok this is a very minor problem but it should be an easy fix.

For the Results page I think it would be best if the placement of the overall win/loss was moved so it appeared as KGS / Score / (W/L) / vs1

Also the KGS link doesnt seem to work for me, not sure if thats for everyone.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: what is the ASR doing wrong?
Post #122 Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:00 am 
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hey ez4u, how about you make some stats now that delta is in this huge form for its 3rd month.

i feel that active players are playing more while the dropout rate is worse and maybe you can prove or disprove this feeling.

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Post #123 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:16 am 
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Let's take a look at a few things... :study:

First here are the same weekly statistics format posted for earlier months in various threads. This is the first 11 days of January and the full weeks for November and December except for the short period at the end.
January Week 1 and First Four Days of Week 2
Image
December Full Month by Week
Image
November Full Month by Week
Image


Second here is a comparison of the class participants in a previous format. These stats are as of the end of January 11th (UCT 23:59) for this month and as of the end of week 2 for November and December, which affects comparability.
Image


Now that is a lot of numbers in a quite user-unfriendly format. So what the heck does it mean? Even I do not know yet and I collected the info. :blackeye:

Nevertheless, let me speculate a little. Obviously we have had a varied experience in the 2.5 months so far. But notice several things. Look particularly at the week-by-week "games played per day per active participant" ("G/D/Act." in the top three charts). This adjusts for the size of the classes and ignores the inactive players. Since the change to combined delta, it (delta) has always had a higher G/D/Act than the combined rest of the league ("Sub ABG") except for the month-end rush when the other classes play lots of games to qualify. In the first week of January that was not true for the first time (although sub ABG is falling back in week 2). The change was mainly due to a sharp increase in the activity in ABG classes. Delta was only slightly lower than previously. I speculate that the combined delta makes it smoother to move the more active players out of delta and into the other classes. After two months of doing this, we may be getting the benefit in terms of a higher level of activity in A, B, and G. In addition, even more of the active players in delta were moved out in December in order to increase the size of Gamma. On the other hand, maybe it is just a random fluctuation. :D

In terms of overall activity, so far January is between the active November and the significantly slower December. So how are the inactive players doing? If we look at the second graph on the players by class, we see that the total number of inactive players is 80 after 11 days. This happens to be exactly the same number that we had in December after 14 days. Will the number be higher or lower for January at the end of week 2? That depends on how many people activate versus how many new comers join the league and do not finish their first game by Saturday. At present, though the number is falling day by day and it looks like the number will come in a little lower than December, against an overall membership that is already slightly larger than December. From this I can not see that there is a particular problem with the level of inactive players.

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 Post subject: Re: what is the ASR doing wrong?
Post #124 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:44 am 
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i found 2 mistakes, the total players for november and december are 323 and 333.

what i meant is that the number of drops before the delta change was lower then the number of drops since it was changed. If this is true then it's not a matter of geography but a matter of laziness and then we can view why people drop out in a whole other way (yes i like to think as if everyone is the same hehe).

the point of the big delta was that it would create more activity, and it did in a way. But is it the right one? The idea is/was that more players could be active because there was a bigger selection of opponents and what i tend to see now is a bunch of players who played 50 or more games and still about the same dropoutrate or worse then before. what's the cause of this? demotivation by seeing someone with 100 points ahead of you? maybe they had other things to do or maybe they advertised a game and never got challenged (or played games with guests or whoever challenged them without looking if its a league member, this seems to be a new trend)

Since i can remember a lot of nicknames ive seen that about 5 or 7 from last months gamma IV have signed up again for the league explaining that they simply could not find time to play because of the holidays so it seems a particular month can spell disaster for the league and we should work on a system for a 1 month exclusion (one of the many long term site plans i guess)

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 Post subject: Re: what is the ASR doing wrong?
Post #125 Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:45 pm 
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stalkor wrote:
i found 2 mistakes, the total players for november and december are 323 and 333...

This is not a mistake but rather a reflection of the changes during the month as you sign up new members. For example the December total players at the end of:
Week 1 = 271 (ABG = 139, Delta = 132)
Week 2 = 303 used in tables above (ABG = 141, Delta = 162)
Week 3 = 332 (ABG = 141, Delta = 191)
Final = 333 (ABG = 141, Delta = 192)

One problem with looking at Delta especially is the large change in membership. I fail to capture the beginning number on the first day in my spreadsheet so the real change during the month is even larger than shown here. IIRC, this month there were only about 70 people in Delta when you opened the January league on January 1st. As I write this post there are 138. We should keep that in mind. My "per active player" stats are the same way. They are all calculated using the number of active players at the end of a period rather than, for example, the average number of active players (which I do not capture).

As to the cause of what we see, we do not know. We can speculate, as I did above. However, until we have many more months of statistics we can not be confident about what they may reveal. Meanwhile the best approach is to ask the membership. Where do people see the ASR as of January 2012? Have the changes actually improved their experience? What else are they hoping to see?

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 Post subject: Re: what is the ASR doing wrong?
Post #126 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:51 am 
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I don't think there's much wrong with the way ASR is set up (only been on it ten days). It's friendly and I get high quality games.

Having said that I only intend playing about 10 times a month. Delta is good because you get fresh, newbie Dans who take the reviewing seriously :) and they are willing to play without fear of losing rank etc. I don't get much sensible review on Tygem and I have to do it myself..

One add on I'd like is a download on the ASR site of all members in each part in alphabetical order. At the momnet I use I use a spread sheet to sort and check players and updating is a little of a pain. I dream of a button on KGS that says " update buddy list to current ASR league"...

Good work Stalker

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Post #127 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:47 am 
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BobC wrote:
I don't think there's much wrong with the way ASR is set up (only been on it ten days). It's friendly and I get high quality games.

Having said that I only intend playing about 10 times a month. Delta is good because you get fresh, newbie Dans who take the reviewing seriously :) and they are willing to play without fear of losing rank etc. I don't get much sensible review on Tygem and I have to do it myself..

One add on I'd like is a download on the ASR site of all members in each part in alphabetical order. At the momnet I use I use a spread sheet to sort and check players and updating is a little of a pain. I dream of a button on KGS that says " update buddy list to current ASR league"...

Good work Stalker


For that button we need 1 of 2 things:
- KGS to recognize the ASR as a serious party they should help or invest in.
- a bot who uses your account briefly to execute this.

Both of these things did not happen yet but im open to talking with wms or whoever else is managing kgs for a cooperation.

P.S. bots are neither allowed or disallowed so until someone uses/abuses a bot on KGS (obviously advertising or spamming by bot is disallowed) i really dont have a clue how they will respond to that.

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 Post subject: Re: what is the ASR doing wrong?
Post #128 Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:32 pm 
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This seems like the place to raise this idea, although maybe it's better as a question:

What would the drawback be to going to a negative komi handicap system in ASR? It does seem to have some advantages, including helping weaker players not get so depressed with losing all the time (an issue that's been raised to me in reviews several times -- I'm a 1d newbie in Delta, btw), and keeping stronger players from chalking up wins despite slacking off.

But of course this has to have been thought of or tried before.

There is the sandbagger issue, significant because there are prized involved, but it seems like there should be ways to deal with that in Delta. There might need to be some sort of minimal requirement for ranked game play, but possibly that could be done within the league, say as a percentage or a minimum of games played in order to qualify for prize or promotion.

I do realize that a possible drawback would be that strong players would not be able to self-segregate so much at the top of the league, but would discouraging that be a bug or a feature? A further thought is that there might be a 9-stone-equivalent cap put on the komi, which would allow a degree of self-segregation. It would also allow the stronger player to conduct more of a teaching game when playing out-of-handi games.

Feedback, please!

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 Post subject: Re: what is the ASR doing wrong?
Post #129 Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:18 pm 
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spbloom wrote:
What would the drawback be to going to a negative komi handicap system in ASR?

why reverse komi, and not handicap stones? handicap stones are much better than reverse komi in teaching games, since they help to teach how to fight.

spbloom wrote:
...including helping weaker players not get so depressed with losing all the time...

when you want to improve, you must play with stronger players. losing is a natural consequence.

spbloom wrote:
There is the sandbagger issue

not only sandbaggers, but some people have no solid rank at all. others improve very fast - 2 stones improvement within a few weeks for a 10k is very likely to happen.

spbloom wrote:
I do realize that a possible drawback would be that strong players would not be able to self-segregate so much at the top of the league

strong players also need strong opponents. they want to improve too, and it already takes a long time until they get to alpha.


you also forgot many players don´t like handicap at all. handicap changes the type of game - your fuseki knowledge is almost useless.

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Post #130 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:42 pm 
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If you really find a long time control game + review in the ASR depressing, my immediate gut reaction is you aren't there to study your game and improve (which is the purpose of the league). Although the league and competition are fun, the whole point of the ASR, in my opinion, is to get a really good chance to play serious games against much stronger players and improve - handicaps and negative komi to make the games more competitive would conflict with that I think?


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 Post subject: Re: what is the ASR doing wrong?
Post #131 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:31 am 
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There are a few issues with handicap and most of them have been pointed out by koffein already.

The most concerning is that i, as organiser, cant trust ranks. A 10k can be 2d for all i know.
I also think dynamically the league would not improve since most strong player work themselves up to play other strong players (or the very active) and this would become rather hard since the negative komi would become rather insane.

Also consoder that at that point ANYONE can more easily get promoted if that person is no strong the playing field is leveled, is this really something we want?

Imo strong players and active players should be at the top and all players should get there by using their own strength, if youre not strong enough then study, get better, try again! That is all lost by using negative komi

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Post #132 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:30 am 
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I agree with stalkor you get a lot of players in the league with uncertain ranks and not to mention there are more kyu who dislike handicap than their are kyu who agree with taking handicap a player will improve more through even games even -komi will change this because this means the dan player or the stronger player will have to play out of context as well... I also think its a bad idea because also as bas said if your going to be in the top you should be active or strong or something around those lines -komi will make it difficult for every player -komi is a okish idea but i dont think its a good idea for this league :scratch: :tmbdown:

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 Post subject: Re: what is the ASR doing wrong?
Post #133 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:45 am 
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Hello,

I'm very new in the ASR so don't bash me pls :bow:

When I understood the scoring system right, you're also heavily rewardet for losing a game right? Or better said just playing and being active, nothing wrong with that, but why not adjust it so that in Delta no change, because new players etc. but then in gamma maybe youre more rewardet for winning score more points or just less rewardet for losing, beta then even more, until Alpha where youre nearly just rewardet for winning? So if you did not make enough improvment on your game, you just fall back after Delta? So first rewardet activity and then with every time less, so if you did not improve enough but just played enough you may eventually fall back again.

Greetings,

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Post #134 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:42 pm 
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Oceandrop wrote:
When I understood the scoring system right, you're also heavily rewardet for losing a game right? Or better said just playing and being active, nothing wrong with that, but why not adjust it so that in Delta no change, because new players etc. but then in gamma maybe youre more rewardet for winning score more points or just less rewardet for losing, beta then even more, until Alpha where youre nearly just rewardet for winning?


You're right that you get points both for playing games and for winning.

People have proposed the system you're suggesting before, and there are I tend to think it's not necessary. Winning your games already becomes more important, relative to just playing as many as possible, as you move up the leagues. This is because there are fewer games to play (Alpha is smaller than Delta) and because participation is generally higher (so in Delta you can beat someone just by playing twice as many games as them, but in Alpha many players play almost every possible game each month, and the winners are the players who won the highest percentage.)

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Post #135 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:12 am 
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there are a few issues with your idea.

first of all, there is only 1 league and there should be 1 rule set to go with that (bash me on this if you like :P ). Making multiple rule sets for each layer in the league would overcomplicate things and make it harder to understand.

the second thing is that decreasing the reward for losing (or making it less significant) has a negative effect on their activity. the thought that they could play 30 games and not get anywhere beyond last place is very demoralizing. on the other hand a strong player that is passed by a weaker player might spark this strong player his activity because surely, low level player shouldn't pass a high level player like him(or her)! This generates activity and maybe they will even play a bit beyond what they would normally play because of this.

in your case alpha would have the insei league effect. Only find the ppl you can surely beat and play them, the rest isn't worth the time because you might lose and would gain you nothing but competition.

rules are that what should motivate a player to play actively against everyone not the opposite

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Post #136 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:49 am 
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I understand your point, but just look at Class Gamma I, there is one player (first place) who won all his games (20 so far) and the third place lost all his games 28 games, yes active, and nothing wrong with losing, I would sure also just lose in Gamma at this point, because I'm not yet good enough, but the problem is he will increase to beta next month, but how should one improve if only fighting better players and being rewardet for it, yes they probably will review his games and help him nothing wrong with that either, but if I would be a better player I would find it a bit exhausting jut to play against much much weaker player who just got into beta because they played a lot more, so in the end maybe this hurts the ASR more, it just seems unfair against someone who example don't have lot of time, or life in a different time zone but try to be active and winning 9 games, but don't get to beta. In my opinion this system rewards weaker player more then stronger, so in the end many strong players maybe will get exhausted to not have a challenge because the other strong players life in different time zones and can't be so active or just have not so much freetime like weaker player because theyre younger or whatever.

But maybe I'm wrong, I would be glad if someone points this out, because I like the ASR and I think it have great potential and maybe I just don't get it. It just seems unfair from my point of view yet, both for the stronger player and the weaker because I don't think you can really improve if you >just< play stronger opponnents.

Edit: Mh I thought over it and yes maybe this would not be better then your system now, but the system seems also not do be perfect yet.. or? Maybe we could think of a better system, but it's hard because it will get more complicated and I can't think of a simple solution and maybe it is also good as it is.

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Post #137 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:53 am 
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I don't see why playing a weaker player should be exhausting at all, if anything it should be less tiring. If people don't want to help others improve they should not be playing in a league focused on improvement

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Post #138 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:56 am 
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Yes, I think you're right, but I still think the system could be better/could be improved mh.

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Post #139 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:04 am 
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Depends on what youthink is improved. For me, being in the ASR is my mean to improve my play. If I can't get to Gamma or even Beta, I can't play that many strong players, and then I have it harder to improve. What is the point of getting ahead if winning/losing means something? Without any encouragement for trying new things I would be as well playing free games with automatch.

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Post #140 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:25 am 
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Yes, maybe the system is not the point and it's alright like it is.

But now I read through the thread and it seems many join to have a community which is a bit more serious about improving, teaching, helping.. so what about like make a Beginner class? Like teaching the basics there, and everyone who is "weak" like new to the game or just can't improve by just playing and reviewing can join, and 1 day per weak the Teacher prepares a class, like .sgf file etc. and teach the basics like compound shapes or so? So:

Create a Beginner class inside the league, all who want(?) may join, but maximal like 12-20 persons and teacher ask them about when online and make a excel sheet maybe, and then the teacher prepares a class like .sgf file with branches already etc. and teaches the class once per week or month some principales, maybe also look at some games from his students and select one or two as examples? After "class" he give them some I don't know homework .sgf files with problems? Dunno, maybe the Idea itself is already stupid and we don't have to talk about what to do :P And yea the Students could ask their teacher about problems or situations they met in games? Maybe that would be a lot of work so I dunno, maybe more then one teacher per class or hope that the students don't come to the teacher about every small problem? Maybe this Idea is stupid or would don't find anyone who want to make this?

Also the Teacher could encourage his students to like send some games to GTL or select two-three games from his students and encourage them to review them in class together with him as supervisor? This would make a bit more community so that the people would stay and stay active maybe? And maybe give the weaker player also satisfaction.
The Beginner class should just be really weak players like 16-30k, so they would improve hurry and then when new weak players join the league they also can join the Beginner Class and the old ones a now stronger and have already improved so they can leave?

Soo your opinion? Totally absurd?

Btw maybe it would be too much like over text, but there is so many possibilitys like skype or teamspeak as alternative to text class.. but yea lets hear if I maybe should not take so many drugs :P or maybe this idea is interesting?

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