Another game played over the board. Both players are 3kyu.
Another game which I managed to lose
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thirdfogie
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peppernut
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
(This is my first .sgf attachment post. Hopefully it worked!)
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
EDIT: I'm having second thoughts about my comments on move 20. I'm not sure what is best there.
EDIT2: I disagree with Peppernut's comment on move 31. I think your choice was best.
EDIT2: I disagree with Peppernut's comment on move 31. I think your choice was best.
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peppernut
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
Thanks for your criticism of my own suggestion. I struggled with the position after 
because after 
as in the game, it leaves a shape where White can double hane starting with L4. After which White is starting to build a big thing on the bottom side and it's not clear (to me at least) that an invasion there is going to be successful, with 2 white stones on each side.
Am I underestimating the weakness of the black group cut off in this position?
Or am I overestimating how bad allowing a hane at L4 is going to be? Or maybe something else entirely?
because after as in the game, it leaves a shape where White can double hane starting with L4. After which White is starting to build a big thing on the bottom side and it's not clear (to me at least) that an invasion there is going to be successful, with 2 white stones on each side.Am I underestimating the weakness of the black group cut off in this position?
Or am I overestimating how bad allowing a hane at L4 is going to be? Or maybe something else entirely?
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thirdfogie
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
Thanks to Joaz Banbeck and peppernut for their comments. I have a few reflections.
Peppernut suggested a White hane at L4 in reply to
, which was move 31 in the game.
A play at L4 (a Bulge Point) looks good locally, but I would have replied at M6, as shown.
(I liked one- and two-point jumps in this game.) All Black's stones in the bottom right
remain connected, so overall that looks better for Black than the variation peppernut showed.
But I could well be wrong.
Joaz criticised Black's passive one-point jump at a in the position below, and suggested the hane at instead.
I rejected the hane because after White's expected answer at
, White is stronger, whereas Black now has a new cutting point.
Was my real mistake a failure to envisage a whole series of further moves such as
in the diagram?
And should Black 7 be at b? Go is difficult.
EDIT on 26 October 2012 to correct positions of black stones in bottom right.
Lastly, Joaz suggested in the position below. Even if I'd thought about a move there, I probably wouldn't
have played it because anything could happen after as shown, including Black's
invaders dying on a large scale. In comparison, the few points Black a secured in the top left were
at least a clear gain.
Peppernut suggested a White hane at L4 in reply to
, which was move 31 in the game.A play at L4 (a Bulge Point) looks good locally, but I would have replied at M6, as shown.
(I liked one- and two-point jumps in this game.) All Black's stones in the bottom right
remain connected, so overall that looks better for Black than the variation peppernut showed.
But I could well be wrong.
Joaz criticised Black's passive one-point jump at a in the position below, and suggested the hane at
instead.I rejected the hane because after White's expected answer at
, White is stronger, whereas Black now has a new cutting point.Was my real mistake a failure to envisage a whole series of further moves such as
in the diagram?And should Black 7 be at b? Go is difficult.
EDIT on 26 October 2012 to correct positions of black stones in bottom right.
Lastly, Joaz suggested
in the position below. Even if I'd thought about a move there, I probably wouldn'thave played it because anything could happen after
as shown, including Black's invaders dying on a large scale. In comparison, the few points Black a secured in the top left were
at least a clear gain.
Last edited by thirdfogie on Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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FlameBlade
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
Probably a good idea to take this game through a quick endgame analysis. For instance -- move 121 is only 1 or 2 points. Move 119 can be at move 121, get a little bigger with one move instead of two moves.
Try to pick few moves from the game that is definitely big, and compare all of the previous moves to it...and ask yourself, "could I have played this now?" If yes, then you should have played that bigger endgame earlier. This exercise will help you learn when to play those big endgames, and what ordering should be taken.
Try to pick few moves from the game that is definitely big, and compare all of the previous moves to it...and ask yourself, "could I have played this now?" If yes, then you should have played that bigger endgame earlier. This exercise will help you learn when to play those big endgames, and what ordering should be taken.
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thirdfogie
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
Hi FlameBlade, thanks for the comment. I never considered playing 119 directly at 121. 
More generally, I feel a post coming on entitled something like "Yose mistakes, their part in my defeats", but it should be a separate thread.
More generally, I feel a post coming on entitled something like "Yose mistakes, their part in my defeats", but it should be a separate thread.
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Magicwand
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
i dont have time and strength to help you tonite. sorry.
but I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.
but I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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thirdfogie
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
Hi Magicwand,
three of us. (I can't believe you really disagreed with Flamebade's comment on yose.)
If you ever do find the time and energy to comment, that means you will be enlighteningMagicwand wrote:i dont have time and strength to help you tonite. sorry.
but I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.
three of us. (I can't believe you really disagreed with Flamebade's comment on yose.)
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
On move 31, Peppernut recommended M5, and I recommended against M5. It is illogical to disagee with both of those statements.Magicwand wrote:... I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.
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jts
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
I said that green sleeps furiously, and you said green sleeps unfuriously. Is MW logically bound to agree with one of us?Joaz Banbeck wrote:On move 31, Peppernut recommended M5, and I recommended against M5. It is illogical to disagee with both of those statements.Magicwand wrote:... I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.
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golem7
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
some comments:
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speedchase
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
no, but that isn't the same as him disagreeing with both of themjts wrote: I said that green sleeps furiously, and you said green sleeps unfuriously. Is MW logically bound to agree with one of us?
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thirdfogie
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
Many thanks to golem7. Your comments were nicely written and look convincing
to my (admittedly weak) eyes.
I played the same opponent again yesterday, and lost badly. Maybe he
learned more than I did from discussing this game.
to my (admittedly weak) eyes.
I played the same opponent again yesterday, and lost badly. Maybe he
learned more than I did from discussing this game.
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Uberdude
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Re: Another game which I managed to lose
I did an audio review of this on KGS on 1st Nov as part of the BGA's shodan challenge (which thordfogie watched parts of). The sound isn't saved, but here's the sgf if you want to look at the variations. (without me saying "this is good", "this is bad", or "later this can happen" (so just because I show a sequence at that time in the review doesn't necessarily mean I am saying it should be played then)).
.
But a summary of a few things:
- At the end of the record, the white group on the lower right is still not alive! As white has k9 and saved k5 the aji is probably too bad to kill it now, but earlier quite possible it was killable (or at least the tail).
- W coming into the right was heavy, particularly r5 block, see my review for suggested light ways to play
- move 20 m4 was fine, B needs to protect against p3. Once defended p3 was bad. I suggested m2, and the Shuei game posted recently had the same shape and Shuei played m2.
- move 31 n4 connect was the only move.
- q8 stones are not heavy, the white group was weak. Black indeed should have haned and pushed.
- W made trouble by invading the top side with the lower right group still weak, inviting splitting attack. o10 was a key point, if w can push here in sente then 3-3, it only gives black a ~35pt territory, w gets 10 in the corner, sente, and is in control of the game. Whether this way to play is good depends how solid the lower left white framework is.
- W had a yose tesuji of p2 plus s2 in the corner.
When I saw this comment without looking at the game/review, I thought "Oh that's Magicwand being, well.... Magicwand", but actually he does have a point. The reviews here focused on all sort of things I didn't with dubious to outright bad suggestions, and missed many of the important mistakes I covered in my review. I wonder what a pro would think of my reviewMagicwand wrote:i dont have time and strength to help you tonite. sorry.
but I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.
.But a summary of a few things:
- At the end of the record, the white group on the lower right is still not alive! As white has k9 and saved k5 the aji is probably too bad to kill it now, but earlier quite possible it was killable (or at least the tail).
- W coming into the right was heavy, particularly r5 block, see my review for suggested light ways to play
- move 20 m4 was fine, B needs to protect against p3. Once defended p3 was bad. I suggested m2, and the Shuei game posted recently had the same shape and Shuei played m2.
- move 31 n4 connect was the only move.
- q8 stones are not heavy, the white group was weak. Black indeed should have haned and pushed.
- W made trouble by invading the top side with the lower right group still weak, inviting splitting attack. o10 was a key point, if w can push here in sente then 3-3, it only gives black a ~35pt territory, w gets 10 in the corner, sente, and is in control of the game. Whether this way to play is good depends how solid the lower left white framework is.
- W had a yose tesuji of p2 plus s2 in the corner.