Another game which I managed to lose

[thirdfogie]

Another game played over the board. Both players are 3kyu.

(;GM[1]FF[4]
CA[UTF-8]
AP[Quarry:0.2.0]
SZ[19]
HA[0]
KM[7.5]
PB[thirdfogie]
PW[A. N. Other4]
RE[Void]
;B[pd];W[cp];B[pq];W[dd];B[ql];W[eq];B[cf];W[gc];B[bd];W[cc]
;B[ci];W[jq];B[cl];W[po];B[qp];W[qo];B[np];W[pm];B[pl];W[nn]
;B[lp];W[ol];B[pj]C[Similar to the previous game I posted.]
;W[oq]C[I thought this was a mistake.];B[op];W[pp];B[qq]
;W[mq];B[nq];W[lq];B[mp];W[ok];B[oj];W[mk];B[jc];W[nc];B[oc]
;W[nd];B[pf];W[ld];B[je];W[mg];B[mi]C[I thought Black is doing well \
here.]
;W[kg];B[ig];W[jh];B[kj];W[nj];B[ni];W[qm];B[pk]C[I considered playing \
this at a, but then decided it was better to take a liberty from the \
white stones.]
LB[qi:a];W[ih];B[hg];W[jj];B[kk];W[hh];B[gg];W[gh];B[fg]
;W[qc];B[ob];W[qe];B[qd]C[A blunder. This should obviously be at a to \
keep an attack on the marked white stones.]
TR[ld][nc:nd][kg][mg][gh:jh][jj]
LB[pe:a];W[pe];B[oe];W[od];B[pc];W[of];B[ne];W[me];B[nf]
;W[og];B[re];W[qf];B[qg];W[pg];B[rf];W[pf];B[ph]C[White was cautious \
here and let Black have a good squeeze. The outcome was still a \
disaster for Black.]
;W[mf];B[oh];W[ng];B[rn]C[A similar move was rightly criticized in the last \
game I posted. This game was played before I saw those comments.]
;W[ro];B[rm];W[mm];B[bc];W[fd];B[cb]C[Would a play at a have killed the\
White group?]
LB[eb:a];W[db];B[bb];W[hp]C[White 92 was brave.];B[hb];W[gb]
;B[ec];W[eb];B[cd];W[dc];B[fh];W[id];B[jd];W[cn]C[I (Black) estimated \
the score around this point and thought I was a few points ahead with \
normal end-game plays. I failed to allow for the marked points that \
White actually got as centre territory.]
TR[gi:ij]
;B[em];W[bm]C[Ouch. Black should have played here first.]
;B[bl];W[fi];B[ee];W[ed];B[ei];W[fj];B[ej];W[fk];B[el];W[de]
;B[gm];W[ce];B[be];W[df];B[cg];W[eo];B[dg];W[rq];B[rp];W[sp]
;B[rr];W[sq];B[sr];W[so];B[or];W[al];B[ak];W[am];B[ck];W[ib]
;B[cm];W[bo];B[jp];W[iq];B[ic];W[hc];B[jb];W[ha];B[go];W[gp]
;B[fo];W[hk];B[fp];W[fq];B[ep];W[dp];B[dn];W[ie];B[jf];W[nb]
;B[qb];W[jo];B[ko];W[do];B[jn];W[jk];B[lb];W[en];B[gl];W[io]
;B[kr];W[kq];B[mr];W[lr]C[The last 2 or 3 moves may have been \
incorrectly recorded.

The record ends here. White won by 1.5 points.]
)

[peppernut]

(This is my first .sgf attachment post. Hopefully it worked!)

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2179

[Joaz Banbeck]

EDIT: I'm having second thoughts about my comments on move 20. I'm not sure what is best there.

(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[Quarry:0.2.0]SZ[19]HA[0]KM[7.5]PB[thirdfogie]PW[A. N. Other4]RE[Void];B[pd];W[cp];B[pq];W[dd];B[ql];W[eq];B[cf];W[gc];B[bd];W[cc];B[ci];W[jq](;B[cl]C[JB: You are solid on the upper left, he is solid in the lower left. So this cannot be an urgent play. You would only want to play it if it were big. See variation](;W[po]C[JB: I'm not sure of the theory behind this nearly-Chinese opening, but I think that - just like a Chinese - he would do better approaching rather than jumping in. See variation](;B[qp](;W[qo];B[np]C[JB: Now you get an even better variation. If you get the upper side first, you have an excellent game here.];W[pm];B[pl];W[nn](;B[lp]TR[pl][ql]C[JB: Again, very much like the previous game, you leave a heavy pair of stones unsupported. Although it does move out strongly. I'm not sure if it is best or not. See variations];W[ol](;B[pj]C[Similar to the previous game I posted.

JBL: This is small, passive, and defensive. He has the group that lacks running room. You have the favorable position here. See variation.];W[oq]C[I thought this was a mistake.

JB: It probably is. Although it is the classic shape attack on your position, it is probably premature. He would do better to play M2 first. ];B[op];W[pp];B[qq];W[mq];B[nq];W[lq];B[mp];W[ok];B[oj];W[mk];B[jc]C[JB: The right idea, just one move off, IMHO. J17 aims at his weakness.
( This assumes, of course, that you do not have to reinforce the right side )];W[nc];B[oc];W[nd];B[pf];W[ld];B[je];W[mg];B[mi]C[I thought Black is doing well here.

JB: I agree];W[kg];B[ig];W[jh];B[kj];W[nj];B[ni];W[qm];B[pk]C[I considered playing this at a, but then decided it was better to take a liberty from the white stones.

JB: I think that your first impulse was better. He is very close to space for two eyes, and he has running room. Shutting down one liberty is premature when you can grab territory on the right.]LB[qi:a];W[ih];B[hg];W[jj];B[kk];W[hh];B[gg];W[gh];B[fg];W[qc];B[ob];W[qe];B[qd]C[A blunder. This should obviously be at a to keep an attack on the marked white stones.]TR[ld][nc:nd][kg][mg][gh:jh][jj]LB[pe:a];W[pe];B[oe];W[od];B[pc];W[of];B[ne];W[me];B[nf];W[og];B[re];W[qf];B[qg];W[pg];B[rf];W[pf];B[ph]C[White was cautious here and let Black have a good squeeze. The outcome was still a disaster for Black.];W[mf];B[oh];W[ng](;B[rn]C[A similar move was rightly criticized in the last game I posted. This game was played before I saw those comments.

JB: this is not too bad, just maybe premature. You are going for his eye space when he still has room to run. Better to lock him in first. See variation.];W[ro];B[rm];W[mm];B[bc];W[fd](;B[cb]C[Would a play at a have killed the White group?

JB: Again, it feels like you are trying to wreck his eye space prematurely. You have a weak keima that still need patching, and here is still room up top. Also, if you do want the vital point, 'A' looks more like it.
When all is said and done, it is still the second best target. See variation.]LB[eb:a][ec:A];W[db];B[bb];W[hp]C[White 92 was brave.];B[hb];W[gb];B[ec];W[eb];B[cd];W[dc];B[fh];W[id];B[jd];W[cn]C[I (Black) estimated the score around this point and thought I was a few points ahead with normal end-game plays. I failed to allow for the marked points that White actually got as centre territory.]TR[gi:ij];B[em];W[bm]C[Ouch. Black should have played here first.];B[bl];W[fi];B[ee];W[ed];B[ei];W[fj];B[ej];W[fk];B[el];W[de];B[gm];W[ce];B[be];W[df];B[cg];W[eo];B[dg];W[rq];B[rp];W[sp];B[rr];W[sq];B[sr];W[so];B[or];W[al];B[ak];W[am];B[ck];W[ib];B[cm];W[bo];B[jp];W[iq];B[ic];W[hc];B[jb];W[ha];B[go];W[gp];B[fo];W[hk];B[fp];W[fq];B[ep];W[dp];B[dn];W[ie];B[jf];W[nb];B[qb];W[jo];B[ko];W[do];B[jn];W[jk];B[lb];W[en];B[gl];W[io];B[kr];W[kq];B[mr];W[lr]C[The last 2 or 3 moves may have been incorrectly recorded.The record ends here. White won by 1.5 points.])(;B[hq]C[*** End comments ***]))(;B[hq]C[JB: There is another weak group here. And if you force it to run, you may get a double attack];W[kp];B[ln];W[ip];B[gp];W[in];B[ep]C[JB: ...ensure that you can get out...];W[dq];B[rn]TR[ln]C[JB: ...then attack. Note how much difference the triangled stone makes.]))(;B[ok]C[JB: Good fighting spirit requires that you hane.]))(;B[ph]C[JB: Theoretically good, following the proverb of N+1 extension from a wall. ( See sensei's on extensions )])(;B[pi]C[JB: Biased toward attacking. Might not be good...]))(;W[oq]C[JB: I'm not sure about this, but I think it may be playable...]))(;B[np]C[JB: This leads to a parody of a standard joseki in which your R8 stone is perfectly placed to wreck his shape];W[qq];B[qr];W[qp];B[rr]TR[ql]C[JB: The triangled stone is perfect here.]))(;W[nc])(;W[mc]))(;B[ic]LB[ec:A]C[JB: This is bigger. It is a play in an 8-space gap, rather than a 6-space gap. Furthermore, it is threatening to invade at 'a', so it has a whiff of urgency about it.]))

EDIT2: I disagree with Peppernut's comment on move 31. I think your choice was best.

[peppernut]

Thanks for your criticism of my own suggestion. I struggled with the position after because after as in the game, it leaves a shape where White can double hane starting with L4. After which White is starting to build a big thing on the bottom side and it's not clear (to me at least) that an invasion there is going to be successful, with 2 white stones on each side.

Am I underestimating the weakness of the black group cut off in this position?

$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . X O X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . O O X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . X O X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . O O X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or am I overestimating how bad allowing a hane at L4 is going to be? Or maybe something else entirely?

[thirdfogie]

Thanks to Joaz Banbeck and peppernut for their comments. I have a few reflections.

Peppernut suggested a White hane at L4 in reply to , which was move 31 in the game.
A play at L4 (a Bulge Point) looks good locally, but I would have replied at M6, as shown.

(I liked one- and two-point jumps in this game.) All Black's stones in the bottom right
remain connected, so overall that looks better for Black than the variation peppernut showed.
But I could well be wrong.

$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . . 2 1 X X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . O O X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . . 2 1 X X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . O O X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz criticised Black's passive one-point jump at a in the position below, and suggested the hane at instead.
I rejected the hane because after White's expected answer at , White is stronger, whereas Black now has a new cutting point.
Was my real mistake a failure to envisage a whole series of further moves such as in the diagram?
And should Black 7 be at b? Go is difficult.

$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 7 5 . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 3 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . . . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 7 5 . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 3 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . . . X . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EDIT on 26 October 2012 to correct positions of black stones in bottom right.

Lastly, Joaz suggested in the position below. Even if I'd thought about a move there, I probably wouldn't
have played it because anything could happen after as shown, including Black's
invaders dying on a large scale. In comparison, the few points Black a secured in the top left were
at least a clear gain.

$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . X . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X . O . O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . 2 . . . X X X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . 1 . O . O O X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . O . . X . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . O . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X X . O . O O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O O O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . O , . . . 2 . . . X X X X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . 1 . O . O O X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[FlameBlade]

Probably a good idea to take this game through a quick endgame analysis. For instance -- move 121 is only 1 or 2 points. Move 119 can be at move 121, get a little bigger with one move instead of two moves.

Try to pick few moves from the game that is definitely big, and compare all of the previous moves to it...and ask yourself, "could I have played this now?" If yes, then you should have played that bigger endgame earlier. This exercise will help you learn when to play those big endgames, and what ordering should be taken.

[thirdfogie]

Hi FlameBlade, thanks for the comment. I never considered playing 119 directly at 121.

More generally, I feel a post coming on entitled something like "Yose mistakes, their part in my defeats", but it should be a separate thread.

[Magicwand]

i dont have time and strength to help you tonite. sorry.
but I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.

[thirdfogie]

Hi Magicwand,

i dont have time and strength to help you tonite. sorry.
but I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.

If you ever do find the time and energy to comment, that means you will be enlightening
three of us. (I can't believe you really disagreed with Flamebade's comment on yose.)

[Joaz Banbeck]

... I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.

On move 31, Peppernut recommended M5, and I recommended against M5. It is illogical to disagee with both of those statements.

[jts]

... I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.

On move 31, Peppernut recommended M5, and I recommended against M5. It is illogical to disagee with both of those statements.

I said that green sleeps furiously, and you said green sleeps unfuriously. Is MW logically bound to agree with one of us?

[golem7]

some comments:

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2199

[speedchase]

I said that green sleeps furiously, and you said green sleeps unfuriously. Is MW logically bound to agree with one of us?

no, but that isn't the same as him disagreeing with both of them

[thirdfogie]

Many thanks to golem7. Your comments were nicely written and look convincing
to my (admittedly weak) eyes.

I played the same opponent again yesterday, and lost badly. Maybe he
learned more than I did from discussing this game.

[Uberdude]

I did an audio review of this on KGS on 1st Nov as part of the BGA's shodan challenge (which thordfogie watched parts of). The sound isn't saved, but here's the sgf if you want to look at the variations. (without me saying "this is good", "this is bad", or "later this can happen" (so just because I show a sequence at that time in the review doesn't necessarily mean I am saying it should be played then)).

http://files.gokgs.com/games/2012/11/1/Uberdude.sgf

i dont have time and strength to help you tonite. sorry.
but I quickly glanced all suggestions and surprisingly disagreed with every comments.

When I saw this comment without looking at the game/review, I thought "Oh that's Magicwand being, well.... Magicwand", but actually he does have a point. The reviews here focused on all sort of things I didn't with dubious to outright bad suggestions, and missed many of the important mistakes I covered in my review. I wonder what a pro would think of my review .

But a summary of a few things:
- At the end of the record, the white group on the lower right is still not alive! As white has k9 and saved k5 the aji is probably too bad to kill it now, but earlier quite possible it was killable (or at least the tail).
- W coming into the right was heavy, particularly r5 block, see my review for suggested light ways to play
- move 20 m4 was fine, B needs to protect against p3. Once defended p3 was bad. I suggested m2, and the Shuei game posted recently had the same shape and Shuei played m2.
- move 31 n4 connect was the only move.
- q8 stones are not heavy, the white group was weak. Black indeed should have haned and pushed.
- W made trouble by invading the top side with the lower right group still weak, inviting splitting attack. o10 was a key point, if w can push here in sente then 3-3, it only gives black a ~35pt territory, w gets 10 in the corner, sente, and is in control of the game. Whether this way to play is good depends how solid the lower left white framework is.
- W had a yose tesuji of p2 plus s2 in the corner.